Self-racism?

[robvalue]

Hmm, self racism...

"I don't like my sort, so go walk my sorry hide out of my house and go back where I came from!"

[Norman Humann]

But maybe that's beside the point of the question - I think the fact that Germany is one of the least flag-waving anthem-singing countries around is first and foremost a consequence of the Nazi era, the foundation of the Federal Republic under American leadership and the confrontation with the Holocaust by the following generation (exemplified by the '68 student revolts). It's not like there was a lack of patriotism before '45. It is today simply seen as a suspicious, possibly dangerous sentiment.

Yeah, that has probably the most to do with it.

I'd like to say we're somewhere in the middle of the flag waving spectrum, but we only wave it when we're under attack. History has a lot to do with the country's mentality, in a huge generalisation, of course. We're really Polish only when we're being invaded. When we're free and prosperous, everyone would rather shit on the flag and go abroad - but say a bad word about us and we're suddenly superpatriotic. We'll find something to complain about either way, because that's how it's always been in history. Kind of exactly what I'm doing right now, but with more cursewords and much more opinionated

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Losty, it may not seem like it to an American, but the Holocaust is still a really big deal in Europe. It left many bitter memories and many people who went through it are still alive and even if they aren't, their children are. Being an overly patriotic German just hits home to some people. Many of my family have died in concentration camps, while some of them had been affiliated with the SS. It's still fresh to many people and I can understand how some would rather not wave flags.

[Losty]

Losty, it may not seem like it to an American, but the Holocaust is still a really big deal in Europe. It left many bitter memories and many people who went through it are still alive and even if they aren't, their children are. Being an overly patriotic German just hits home to some people. Many of my family have died in concentration camps, while some of them had been affiliated with the SS. It's still fresh to many people and I can understand how some would rather not wave flags.

I think the Holocaust is still considered a big deal everywhere. As it should be. It was a horrible thing and we don't want to see it repeated.

I can also see why some people would rather not wave flags, I would rather not wave flags. I have never waved one since the time I was old enough to think for myself. As an American, I have difficulty fighting these strange urges and feelings when I hear the anthem or the pledge of allegiance. It's fucking creepy to me, that from a time I was far too young to understand I was taught to have a strong love for and pride in my nation. Take a third grade history course in the US and you will learn that America is this amazing country that has never done anything wrong and exists simply to save everyone else from themselves. (Insert eye rolling here)
I don't like, nor do I agree with blind patriotism regardless of what country you're from.
That being said, Germany is a pretty cool country. They have a much better education system that we do, they have affordable healthcare for everyone, their government takes care of needy children, they have beautiful amazing old castles, and let's don't forget Oktoberfest. I'm just saying, there is no shame in loving Germany and thinking it is now a great country. There's nothing wrong with singing your national anthem and being glad you were born in Germany. It's just my opinion. I don't think people should be made to feel guilty for the sins of their fathers, or their great grandfathers. I'm not saying forget about it that was so long ago. No, remember it, remember that it was awful, plan to not only not take part in anything like it but to actively prevent it should anyone ever try it again. You don't have to be proud of what your great grandparents did with their lives, but you don't to feel guilty over it either.

[Norman Humann]

It's less about guilt and more about associations. I agree there's nothing wrong with it and I don't think anyone sees it as wrong, but it just reminds people of the hell they went through. Just like there's nothing wrong with being proud of being white, but walking around black neighborhoods with a "white power" t-shirt will be frowned upon.

[Losty]

It's less about guilt and more about associations. I agree there's nothing wrong with it and I don't think anyone sees it as wrong, but it just reminds people of the hell they went through. Just like there's nothing wrong with being proud of being white, but walking around black neighborhoods with a "white power" t-shirt will be frowned upon.

I personally think being proud of being white is wrong. I wouldn't suggest being proud to be German either, but rather being proud of Germany. I don't see why waving the national flag or singing your national anthem, or even wearing a shirt that says 'I love Germany' would be offensive to anyone. Maybe I'm just clueless, I am American afterall. Some things I just don't get.

[Dystopia]

I agree with Losty. The problem with white pride isn't that being white is wrong, it's because it's a common motto used by neo-nazi, white supremacist and white nationalist people - It is too much associated with it for white people to be proud of being white. Black pride or gay pride are not really "pride", it's basically a way of saying that "I'm discriminated and different but I love being me and you should respect me" - I'm sure that if gays weren't discriminated and blacks didn't get shot so often by the cops there wouldn't be any pride marches and parades.

[Norman Humann]

I personally think being proud of being white is wrong. I wouldn't suggest being proud to be German either, but rather being proud of Germany. I don't see why waving the national flag or singing your national anthem, or even wearing a shirt that says 'I love Germany' would be offensive to anyone. Maybe I'm just clueless, I am American afterall. Some things I just don't get.

It's not necessarily offensive, it's just "suspicious", like Alex said. You know, we had people singing anthems and waving flags here not so long ago and bad things happened is a euphemism, so now other flag-waving anthem-singing people turn up on the radar.

It is hard to understand from an outsider's point of view. It may seem like 70 years ago is a long time, but it's really not. Like we've said, our grandparents remember it very vividly.

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Can you explain the difference you mean between being proud to be German and being proud of Germany?

[Dystopia]

I can understand more or less the problem - In Portugal we had a dictatorship, and everyone who leans too much on the far right and is overly patriotic is immediately mistrusted as being a fascist/nationalist, and because of that we vote mostly on the left - The communist party has much more votes than the nationalist one (that is highly ignored and criticized by the media) - Everything that involves the patriotic strong pride is dismissed because it is correlated with 1 - Ultra conservatism 2 - Authoritarianism 3 - Fascism 4 - Homophobia 5 - Racism, xenophobia --> This goes up to the point of making fascist organizations illegal as I've already said - And if I'm not mistaken in Germany the penalty for creating a neo-nazi party or waving a Swastika is very serious

[Norman Humann]

And if I'm not mistaken in Germany the penalty for creating a neo-nazi party or waving a Swastika is very serious

Don't know about Germany, but here anything connected to fascism is illegal.

[Dystopia]

Germany seems to have harsher penalties for everything connected to the Holocaust and Nazism, included, from what I've heard from Germans, school programs that teach students why racism is wrong and why equality is important.