Christians, where does your allegiance lie? - Jesus Christ or Bible

[dyresand]

When have I ever not given an answer? (Answers not in youtube form still count as answers given)

At least the videos i choose to post give a valid point to your arguments instead of me having to write it out. While you do this -> pretty much implying your science has now power here religion is true god is real. Well... if that was the case why is there non believers and also why is there so many religions and yet you have no proof. but please by all means give me proof that is all i really need because god of the bible could not logically exist. If you have another position on god where one is all loving and regardless of being a "sinner" he takes you in anyways and reject the notion of hell i am all ears.

[Drich]

Yes..

Define all knowing.

Now is it possible to 'learn something' if one is all knowing?

First of all, Jesus was not all knowing:

But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

And in Mark 5:30, Jesus asks a question for which he doesn't know the answer, and when he isn't supplied an answer, he looks for one. So the basis of what you're saying is flat out wrong.

Second of all, an all knowing person could certainly change their position on something; they still have a personality, after all, and that's mutable over time. There's no reason an omniscient person couldn't grow and mature. And if Jesus couldn't learn something, then he's certainly not all powerful. Therein lies the trilemma theodicy attempts to solve.

Mark 5:30 Jesus immediately felt power go out from him, so he stopped and turned around. “Who touched my clothes?” he asked.

31 The followers said to Jesus, “There are so many people pushing against you. But you ask, ‘Who touched me?’”

32 But Jesus continued looking for the one who touched him. 33 The woman knew that she was healed, so she came and bowed at Jesus’ feet. She was shaking with fear. She told Jesus the whole story. 34 He said to her, “Dear woman, you are made well because you believed. Go in peace. You will not suffer anymore.”

This is like a parent seeing an empty bag of cookies on the table, and a child with cookie bits all over his mouth and cloths, and the parent asking 'Who ate the cookies.' Christ here was looking for accountablity from the woman who suffered so much she was afraid to ask for fear she maybe turned away. Otherwise why look in a situation like that if you don't know what the outcome would be? Not finding the woman would cause far greater damage to Him, and who He was to be.

Aside from this your right in that Jesus nor the Spirit knows when the last day will be. Yet they are still God. Again God is a title and not a Name. Meaning Those who hold that title are collectivly 'all knowing.' As such would have written the bible to include any 'changes' Scripturally of Christ if any were to be made.

Rather the bible says the oppsite. In that one is comming claiming to be Christ who is different from the Christ of the bible. The bible warns us of him and tells us not to follow him.

[Forsaken]

Again in the book of revelation, this is exactly how the anti Christ presents. He fools EVERYONE who does not know the God of the bible, because he can do many of the works of Christ. But he is not Christ.

So Again, I serve the God of the bible, and 'god' who does not follow the bible is the devil in disguise.

Once again, you evade my question with such ease.
Let me simply this for you a little bit. The Real Jesus Christ
(The Son
The Son of God
His only begotten Son
The Son of the Father
The only begotten of the Father
The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father
The first-born of every creature
His own Son
A Son given
One Son
His dear Son
The Son of the Highest
The Son of the Blessed
The Almighty, which is, and which was, and which is to come
The Creator of all things
The Upholder of all things
The Everlasting Father
The Beginning
The Beginning and the Ending
The Alpha and the Omega
The First and the Last
The Life
Eternal Life
That Eternal Life which was with the Father
He that liveth
The Man Christ Jesus
A Man approved of God
The Second Man, the Lord from heaven
The Son of Man
The Son of Abraham
The Son of David
The Son of Mary
The Son of Joseph
The Seed of the Woman
The Seed of Abraham
Of the Seed of David
)
comes to you and says that the version of the bible you are using has been mistranslated over the ages and you are doing it all wrong by following this version to the word.

Who or what will you believe? This Real Jesus Christ or the mistranslated version of the bible.

[emilynghiem]

As the title says, assuming you are a Christian who believes Jesus (Christ) is the only way to salvation (Yes, Unitarians don't believe Jesus as God and Jesus as the only means to God).

So for argument sake, Imagine if Jesus (yes the real one) who frequently reveals himself to born-again Christians, tells you that you were doing it all wrong as in the bible is not his word.

Would you:
1) disregard this revelation as an hallucination?
2) ditch the bible?
3) consider this as Satan trying to deceive you by dressing up as Jesus?

I already believe that Christ Jesus means Restorative Justice which fulfills any law it is applied to whether secular humanist or naturalist, Constitutionalist, Buddhist etc.

I happen to live by natural laws and use the Constitution more than anything to work with different people of all faiths, which I see as protected under the Constitution.

I was using the Bible to relate with other Christians, but that blew up in my face recently, and I'm back to using natural laws since we couldn't agree on the Bible which only works if both people receive the other as an equal believer. I was rejected as a Universalist nonchristian or antichristian, so that didn't work anymore.

Everyone I know wants their free speech, right to petition and due process to defend their beliefs, so I am back to using natural laws and enforcing those which I find to be more universal.

I would only use the Bible if both people or all people agree they are all believers and work within the same context. If not it is disastrous.

---

Again in the book of revelation, this is exactly how the anti Christ presents. He fools EVERYONE who does not know the God of the bible, because he can do many of the works of Christ. But he is not Christ.

So Again, I serve the God of the bible, and 'god' who does not follow the bible is the devil in disguise.

Once again, you evade my question with such ease.
Let me simply this for you a little bit. The Real Jesus Christ
(The Son
The Son of God
His only begotten Son
The Son of the Father
The only begotten of the Father
The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father
The first-born of every creature
His own Son
A Son given
One Son
His dear Son
The Son of the Highest
The Son of the Blessed
The Almighty, which is, and which was, and which is to come
The Creator of all things
The Upholder of all things
The Everlasting Father
The Beginning
The Beginning and the Ending
The Alpha and the Omega
The First and the Last
The Life
Eternal Life
That Eternal Life which was with the Father
He that liveth
The Man Christ Jesus
A Man approved of God
The Second Man, the Lord from heaven
The Son of Man
The Son of Abraham
The Son of David
The Son of Mary
The Son of Joseph
The Seed of the Woman
The Seed of Abraham
Of the Seed of David
)
comes to you and says that the version of the bible you are using has been mistranslated over the ages and you are doing it all wrong by following this version to the word.

Who or what will you believe? This Real Jesus Christ or the mistranslated version of the bible.

Dear Forsaken:
A. I think the people who have gone through what you say are LIKE the Messianic Jews who finally understand that the Christian Jesus
IS the right meaning and the way they were taught before was NOT right.

B. the key factor I see in whether they receive or reject is
FORGIVENESS

if the person bringing this to them does NOT forgive them, then the audience tends to reject and not forgive the differences.

If the messenger and the audience are BOTH forgiving, then they
can see this is the right interpretation and spirit, and the previous
way of teaching it was not.

C. the way I explain it, the OT is about the letter of the law and retributive justice which lends itself to ANTICHRIST or "retribution" by fear and ill will, inflicting judgment punishment and rejection. So this reaps more rejection and retribution which is ANTICHRIST.

The NT is about the spirit of the law and RESTORATIVE JUSTICE which is Christ Jesus and brings new life, restoring relations by mutual forgiveness and correction, not rejection and punishment.

So, in fact, it is the purpose of Christianity to teach the Right type of JUSTICE.

You get the Justice you give: so if you live by the sword you die by it, if you wreak retributive justice then you get this in return

but if you live by forgiving others so you will be forgiven,
this is Restorative Justice with mercy that brings peace.

so yes, to answer your question, those who realize they have been teaching the Bible wrong in the spirit of unforgiveness and retributive justice will be brought to understand and replace this with Restorative Justice that fulfills the laws and corrects misinterpretations.

The key difference is forgiveness. Where people can FORGIVE that this has been taught wrong in the past, then it can be replaced with true Justice that brings freedom and peace to all people by agreeing in truth.

[robvalue]

So... was that a vote for jesus over the bible?

I'll be impressed if so, getting a straight answer on here is like getting blood into a stone.

[Forsaken]

I think this thread pretty well establishes that the second coming of jesus might not go down well with Drich.

emilynghiem, I have absolutely no fucking idea what you are trying to say behind that wall of text.

[robvalue]

Right, if Jesus comes down and tells a christian to ignore the bible, their head might just explode.

The fact that they cannot answer this simple question should raise concerns as to the sheer amount of contradictory beliefs they are holding, and the problems with the reasons for those beliefs. If I ask them if they would obey god directly talking to them, they won't answer either. I get a massive wall of text explaining what is wrong with the very simple question.

[dyresand]

Right, if Jesus comes down and tells a christian to ignore the bible, their head might just explode.

The fact that they cannot answer this simple question should raise concerns as to the sheer amount of contradictory beliefs they are holding, and the problems with the reasons for those beliefs. If I ask them if they would obey god directly talking to them, they won't answer either. I get a massive wall of text explaining what is wrong with the very simple question.

Also jesus isn't really any fair authority because if a person can do some really inhumane shit he can get away with it in front of him and be like jesus i accept you blah blah blah and then die and go to heaven.

[emilynghiem]

I think this thread pretty well establishes that the second coming of jesus might not go down well with Drich.

emilynghiem, I have absolutely no fucking idea what you are trying to say behind that wall of text.

Hi @Forsaken and @robvalue
Jesus means the spirit of Justice
Christ Jesus means Restorative Justice
So yes I believe that is universal and does NOT depend on the Bible per se.

Frankly I prefer to apply this toward Constitutional laws and natural laws as universal principles that govern all humanity.

The Bible is not enough to hold govts in check, so that's why we need the Constitution. The Constitution still allows for free exercise of religion, so you can still use the Bible underneath that, but not the other way. If you use the Bible to start saying God is behind all govt and has to be followed blindly, that's why we need Constitutional laws and reason/science to check faith.

Sorry if this isn't clear.

I would have thought since you are asking for explanations and not blind faith, you might already know it requires elaboration to work on the level of reason.

If you want short answers, why do you think people flock to the Bible and try to explain away salvation using symbols like Jesus.
Fewer people can handle the long drawn out explanations such as in Buddhism on what happens in the process of sorting out "heaven and hell"
and sins as karma, and how do these issues get resolved if they are passed down to other generations. Few people WANT to know how all this works logistically.

That's what starts religions is people want shortcut ways to say things. So much easier to chalk things up to Jesus on the cross bringing salvation to all humanity, but if you were to spell out what it takes to forgive and correct all sin/karma and the effects thereof, you end up with Buddhism which many cannot handle.

So if you want to go the SECULAR route, some of these discussions can get rather drawn out down to the atoms and molecules of what makes people think or believe things, and what makes us differ.

If you can't take this, then go join a religion and let someone spoonfeed you symbolic language that means the same things.

I would think you can be more intelligent than that if you are questioning things on a molecular level. Surely you can handle the answers if they come out that way!

[FatAndFaithless]

Deciphering your posts is a hugely straining mental workout, emilynghiem.