Gaps in theistic arguments. Secular theism vs religious theism

[robvalue]

Hehe. Argument from incredulity.

Didn't someone say that science is taking seriously now an eternal past... I gotta find out some stuff about this.

[Pizza]

Nevermind my arguments before this point. Since Chadwooter is being too lazy to prove the more important claim that the first cause is a mind, I'm going to give two arguments against this based on self-evidence and intuition. I don't think these argument are knock down arguments but I think they give good reasons to doubt.
Argument one:
P1. If God is a necessary being, then there can't be a self-evident and intuitive reason for a possible world with only mindless automatons in it to exist.
Note: God is not a mindless automaton.
P2. There is a self-evident and intuitive reason for a possible world with only mindless automatons in it to exist.
P2.1 I can clearly and distinctly imagine mindless automatons.
C. God is not a necessary being.

Argument two:
P1. If God is a necessary being, then it would be self-evident to I at this point (temporal or atemporal) that a mind can't fail to exist.
P2. It's self-evident to I at this point (temporal or atemporal) that minds can fail to exist.
P2.2 It's self-evident that minds can fail to exist.
P2.3 If minds like my mind are necessary then they are not contingent on a God existing.
C1. God a kind of thinking mind is not a necessary being.
P3. If C1, then all arguments for "God is a necessary being" are unsound.
P4. C1.
C2. All arguments for "God is a necessary being" are unsound.

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Hehe. Argument from incredulity.

Didn't someone say that science is taking seriously now an eternal past... I gotta find out some stuff about this.

Yeah, because it's debatable if time exists apart from observers.

[Chas]

You are correct that the First Cause 'only' establishes a deistic or impersonal God. Additional arguments, like Aquinas's Fifth way flesh out the rest.

Aquinas's Fifth Way is an infantile argument that denies that the natural world can operate without a designer and mover.

It's time to leave Aquinas with the other children's stories.

[Mudhammam]

Yeah, because it's debatable if time exists apart from observers.

Where does that leave, or what implications would that have, for the apparently successive events that occurred prior to conscious entities? And isn't time believed to be related to entropy which does have a definite beginning in the Universe's very, very early history?

[robvalue]

I can't stop reading that as aquarium. Aquarium proves god using a fish and some pellets.

[Pizza]

Yeah, because it's debatable if time exists apart from observers.

Where does that leave, or what implications would that have, for the apparently successive events that occurred prior to conscious entities? And isn't time believed to be related to entropy which does have a definite beginning in the Universe's very, very early history?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-theory_of_time

FYI: I don't know.

[Mudhammam]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-theory_of_time

Actually that reminds me of a book on my shelf that I recently bought, which I plan on reading in another month or so: Julian Barbour's "The End of Time: The Next Revolution in Our Understanding of the Universe." I'm guessing that should clarify things a bit.

[Neo-Scholastic]

I guess it is your choice if you want to engage in hand-waving rather than address the issues.

I think the person who is engaged in hand-waving is the person who says, "The past can't be infinite. THAT'S INCONCEIVABLE. It must be an eternal, necessary, non-temporal Something which acts in time."

Who said the past cannot be eternal? The first cause argument doesn't have anything to do with whether the universe always existed or not. That just shows that you don't understand the argument.

[Pizza]

At best the five ways prove or support an unconscious mind creates, designs, and sustains the universe.

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Another point for secular theism.

[Neo-Scholastic]

The Fifth Way of Aquinas demonstrates intentionality which is clearly associated with the intellect.