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RE: Is the bible all perfect?
March 7, 2015 at 9:41 pm
(March 7, 2015 at 9:14 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote: (March 7, 2015 at 6:32 pm)Sionnach Wrote: And scripture is not evidence of anything except that you are gullible. Using scripture as evidence to support a religious claim is circular reasoning.
Are you simply going out of your way to argue with me? Why wouldn't one use Scripture as evidence in a theological argument, at least when that argument is with other Christians? What are we supposed to argue with, verses from the Koran? What people mean is that providing biblical scriptures doesn't prove Christianity is right because you need to prove the historical and factual accuracy of each and every one of those verses.
If you're having a discussing merely about theology it's ok to bring bible verses to support your points, but this is about the perfection of the bible and god's perfection. So, is the bible perfect or imperfect?
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
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RE: Is the bible all perfect?
March 7, 2015 at 9:42 pm
(March 6, 2015 at 11:41 am)watchamadoodle Wrote: (March 6, 2015 at 11:02 am)Drich Wrote: So what does it say? It says the bible is truth, and is all we need to establish and maintain a relationship with God.
Meaning all we need to have a direct interactive relationship with the Holy Spirit is found in the Bible. Because the Holy Spirit is indeed God, He then and his instruction is without error.
...
Again we are told the bible is truth and all we need to A/S/K for the Holy Spirit which is indeed without error because He is apart of the God Head. The bible also tells us that it is the Holy Spirit who will write all of God's laws and understanding we need on our hearts. The bible then becomes a measure or 'test' to see if it is indeed the Holy Spirit that you are dealing with as the two will not contradict. Drich, what is the source for your beliefs about the Bible (quoted above)? The Bible is a collection of books that were written independently and canonized centuries later. How could any part of the Bible's text be making claims about the Bible in its entirety?
Luke 11 is where I got what is written above.
Just so we are clear what is written in Luke 11 is about the Holy Spirit. The Same Holy Spirit who inspired the bible.
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RE: Is the bible all perfect?
March 7, 2015 at 10:06 pm
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2015 at 10:11 pm by MilesAbbott81.)
(March 7, 2015 at 9:24 pm)Sionnach Wrote: (March 7, 2015 at 9:14 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote: Why wouldn't one use Scripture as evidence in a theological argument, at least when that argument is with other Christians?
In case you have not noticed, you are on an atheist forum. Theists do not debate each other on here (at least I have not witnessed it). This forum is primarily comprised of atheist versus theist debate.
I have noticed; it appears you are simply not paying attention to the details of the discussion. Someone was asking me about discussions I've had outside of this forum, and I explained myself.
As the arguments were with other Christians (mostly), I quoted Scripture pointing out fallacies such as that of the trinity, eternal torture, and the sovereignty of God. Certainly one would use Scripture in such arguments, don't you think?
(March 7, 2015 at 9:41 pm)Dystopia Wrote: What people mean is that providing biblical scriptures doesn't prove Christianity is right because you need to prove the historical and factual accuracy of each and every one of those verses.
If you're having a discussing merely about theology it's ok to bring bible verses to support your points, but this is about the perfection of the bible and god's perfection. So, is the bible perfect or imperfect?
I'll reiterate: the discussions I was having were with other Christians, concerning Christianity. Thus I used/quoted the Bible.
I've already stated the Bible is imperfect. That much is obvious to anyone not deliberately putting on blinders. My point was that it is imperfect not because God is imperfect, but because it is His will that the Bible be imperfect.
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RE: Is the bible all perfect?
March 7, 2015 at 10:15 pm
(March 7, 2015 at 3:05 pm)robvalue Wrote: OK, well I checked the 10 commandements, and I've never done anything on that list. So am I ok?
The Ten Commandments are found in Exodus 34:12-28.
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RE: Is the bible all perfect?
March 7, 2015 at 10:17 pm
(March 6, 2015 at 8:29 pm)Dystopia Wrote: So how imperfect is the bible? Just enough, so as one looking to worship God does not mistake His words, as being worthy of worship.
(So the words/book does not become a point of worship/false idol.)
Quote:Why? Because God in the bible never claimed the bible is without error. To say it is is to speak where the bible is silent.
Quote:Then is god imperfect?
wow that was a huge leap in logic.. How does one go from" the bible never claims perfection" to God is imperfect.
As I already pointed out the imperfection of the bible only means the book/bible is not God.
Quote: Why wasn't he able to write (read - Inspire people to write) a perfect the bible?
why would He want to? When what He has given is enough for the faithful to find Him, and the doubters the doubt they need to stay away from Him?
Quote:What if it's imperfect?
then it is on God to forgive us when we follow a passage in error or it is up to Him to Change said passage as per a discovery like the Dead Sea scrolls.
Quote:Meaning all we need to have a direct interactive relationship with the Holy Spirit is found in the Bible. Because the Holy Spirit is indeed God, He then and his instruction is without error.
Quote:So if we have a connection with the holy spirit everything else can be ignored and we are saved?
You'd have your answer if you simply reconstruct the context in which this quote of mine was taken.
Quote:Speaking of what is and is not in the bible the doctines of an Omni max God is not mentioned anywhere. This too is a religious teaching we have adopted extra-biblically.
Quote:Who invented that?
The first vatican consul in the mid 1800's
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Vatican_Council
Quote:Yes, supposedly it looks that way
Quote:In short being the Great I am/Apha and Omega means God is whom ever He wants to be.
Quote:So god is a chameleon?
Is God a Chamaeleonidae? No.
I Wrote:Does it mean He can create a rock so big He can't lift it? Yes! if He wants too, and No if He does not! Does it mean He is bound by the defination of Omni benovlence? Again yes if He wants to Be No if He does not. Like wise does it mean a perfect God can have a bible published that is not perfect as God is perfect? Yes if He want's to No if He does not. you Wrote:If he is omnibenevolent why can he commit evil? First, God never claims to be Omnibenevolent
Second, Evil is identified as being a deep desire to be outside of God's expressed will (Sin.) if God wills to do something, then it ceases to be a sin.
Understand God is the beginning and end of all things. Meaning He is the standard in which things are judged. Sin and evil is not a standard that big enough to judge God.
Quote:Christian English is complicated, translate that to regular English
God being the alpha and omega does not subject Him to the paradoxes that being hailed as an Omni max God Does.
Quote:Explain this better. Is the bible perfect or not? and if it isn't, how do you know which parts are the truth about god and which aren't?
See above. God is responsible for content of scripture or our forgiveness for following something less than perfect.
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RE: Is the bible all perfect?
March 7, 2015 at 10:19 pm
(March 7, 2015 at 9:42 pm)Drich Wrote: (March 6, 2015 at 11:41 am)watchamadoodle Wrote: Drich, what is the source for your beliefs about the Bible (quoted above)? The Bible is a collection of books that were written independently and canonized centuries later. How could any part of the Bible's text be making claims about the Bible in its entirety?
Luke 11 is where I got what is written above.
Just so we are clear what is written in Luke 11 is about the Holy Spirit. The Same Holy Spirit who inspired the bible. It seems to me that you are arguing that the Holy Spirit guided the church leaders that chose the books of the NT canon so that the Bible would be perfect.
My question: wouldn't the Holy Spirit have also guided other decisions made by the leaders who set the NT canon? Based on my skimming of wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon ), the Synod of Hippo in 393 made important decisions on the NT canon. However this synod also made other decisions that seem wrong or anachronistic to modern Protestants:
Quote:The council also reaffirmed the apostolic origin of the requirement of clerical continence and reasserted it as a requirement for all the ordained, in addition requiring that all members of a person's household must be Christian before that person can be ordained.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Hippo
There is some uncertainty about the meaning of "clerical continence". Catholics probably think it means celibacy. Orthodox probably don't. Either way, wouldn't you agree that clerics were more than simply Bible teachers at that time? There was much more to Christianity than simply the Bible. There was a hierarchy, practices, theologies, traditions, priests, bishops, etc.
In other words, how can you say that the Holy Spirit created a perfect Bible though the same leaders and process that created an imperfect Catholic Church?
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RE: Is the bible all perfect?
March 7, 2015 at 10:22 pm
(March 7, 2015 at 10:06 pm)MilesAbbott81 Wrote: I have noticed; it appears you are simply not paying attention to the details of the discussion.
I apologize if I argued out of context of your position.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
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RE: Is the bible all perfect?
March 7, 2015 at 10:27 pm
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2015 at 10:29 pm by Drich.)
(March 6, 2015 at 8:40 pm)Norman Humann Wrote: Drich, for an omnipotent being, your god has a lot of trouble communicating. Does he have an ASD or something?
It is SOOO funny to me that you all use your personal experiences to speak for how the rest of the world can only experience God.
Just because you haven't heard God, doesn't mean He has trouble communicating... Maybe He simply has nothing to say to you that hasn't already been said.
(March 6, 2015 at 8:54 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: Implying God's Word is imperfect violates a Commandment.
Scripture also notes God is not the author of confusion, and we also read ALL Scripture is suitable . . .
Seems like the wrong parts would be confusing and unsuitable, unless the 'confusing' and 'ALL Scripture' verses are also confusing and unsuitable.
Do the Christers REALLY want to go down this road ????
REALLY ????????
Best they bite their lip and stick with Literally True and Inerrant, lest the fuck they whole edifice.
So all you need do now is show that the word "suitable" holds the same meaning as the word "perfect/with out error."
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RE: Is the bible all perfect?
March 7, 2015 at 10:30 pm
(March 7, 2015 at 10:27 pm)Drich Wrote: Just because you haven't heard God, doesn't mean He has trouble communicating...
If I started hearing a voice in my head that was not my conscience, I would make it a point to see a psychiatrist before assuming it was the voice of god.
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RE: Is the bible all perfect?
March 7, 2015 at 10:31 pm
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2015 at 10:56 pm by Drich.)
(March 7, 2015 at 5:11 am)robvalue Wrote: 40,000 sects is not good evidence of a perfect message.
It's evidence of a bunch of gibberish. We're being told we're gonna burn, but even if christianity is right, almost every christian is gonna burn too.
Asked and answered:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-30913.html
(March 7, 2015 at 2:47 pm)Sionnach Wrote: (March 6, 2015 at 11:02 am)Drich Wrote: First things first to answer your question. No I do not believe the bible is perfect as God is perfect.
Why? Because God in the bible never claimed the bible is without error.
The book is not perfect, the fictional character states it is not a perfect book, but we are to suspend our logical inclinations to accept it as truth nonetheless.
Makes no sense.
Seems to me that an omnipotent being could have found a better way to convey his mmessage. The book simply does not claim perfection. It does not say it is imperfect, just like it does not say it is perfect. It simply claims to be truth and all you need to find and maintain a relationship with God.
(March 7, 2015 at 10:19 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: (March 7, 2015 at 9:42 pm)Drich Wrote: Luke 11 is where I got what is written above.
Just so we are clear what is written in Luke 11 is about the Holy Spirit. The Same Holy Spirit who inspired the bible. Quote:It seems to me that you are arguing that the Holy Spirit guided the church leaders that chose the books of the NT canon so that the Bible would be perfect.
not perfect. Just truth, complete, just enough to provide believers a path to Find Him.
At the same time give the doubt needed to sustain pride and disbelief.
Quote:My question: wouldn't the Holy Spirit have also guided other decisions made by the leaders who set the NT canon?
He did.
Where all of your logic fails is that you believe because God is perfect He MUST produce a perfect book.
Again why would He do that if His goal was to foster choice? What choice would you all have if the Bible was perfect as God was Perfect. As things are their is enough doubt built into Scripture for those who do not want to believe in it the freedom to doubt it.
Quote: Based on my skimming of wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon ), the Synod of Hippo in 393 made important decisions on the NT canon. However this synod also made other decisions that seem wrong or anachronistic to modern Protestants:
Quote:The council also reaffirmed the apostolic origin of the requirement of clerical continence and reasserted it as a requirement for all the ordained, in addition requiring that all members of a person's household must be Christian before that person can be ordained.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Hippo
There is some uncertainty about the meaning of "clerical continence". Catholics probably think it means celibacy. Orthodox probably don't. Either way, wouldn't you agree that clerics were more than simply Bible teachers at that time? There was much more to Christianity than simply the Bible. There was a hierarchy, practices, theologies, traditions, priests, bishops, etc.
In other words, how can you say that the Holy Spirit created a perfect Bible though the same leaders and process that created an imperfect Catholic Church?
Again the bible never claims to be perfect as God is perfect. It simply says it is all you need and it says it is the truth. Which then makes the content God's responsiblity, and "not burying what we have been given" ours.
(March 7, 2015 at 10:30 pm)Sionnach Wrote: [quote='Drich' pid='893398' dateline='1425781645']
Just because you haven't heard God, doesn't mean He has trouble communicating...
If I started hearing a voice in my head that was not my conscience, I would make it a point to see a psychiatrist before assuming it was the voice of god.
Do you hear a voice when you read what is written on these forums?
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