Jesus' Sacrifice

[Drich]

You are misreading me. If your god had to suffer for us to gain forgiveness then why is a six hour crucifixion enough compared to the eternity of hell we get for not kissing his ass for that unasked for 'sacrifice".

It wasn't just His death on the cross, it was the death sentence that he endured before that death along with His seperation from the Father that is to attone for our sins. Like I said I believe this sacrifice did indeed Change the nature of the Relationship of The Father and Son. That His life in eternity past will not be the same in eternity future.

But why suffer at all? That is silly. And no, humans do not need pain and suffering to illustrate the cost of a sacrifice. You are married, Drich. When your wife takes time to do something for you does she also have to physically hurt herself to gain your gratitude?

God is not looking for graitude. Paul tells us we have been bought with a great price. This is the message that God is communicating, not that He simply wants a thank you. We were all slaves of sin, and now we have been freed from those bonds.

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Another question is..why would Jesus ask if his Father had forsaken him...if he is his Father. It's like Gollum arguing with Smeagol, it's insane.

God is a title and not a name. Example:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit.

For the son to ask the Father anything would be no different than any son to ask any father something who shared the same title.

[Nope]

Self-indulgent bullshit. God could have achieved the same goal without the supposed pageantry; which as I stated before, was practically worthless. If I am to believe the Bible, God comes across as a no talent prepubescent attention whore. God, the original Kardashian.

Ok, clato. In your opinion what is God trying to communicate with Christ on the cross, that could have been done another way?

I don't believe bible god exists but I think that the authors of the story were trying to convey that their god made a sacrifice for humanity. They didn't care that the story makes no sense or is offensive. Remember these were people who had probably witnessed a lot of cruelty by the authorities. Rulers were supposed to be harsh. The inventors of Christianity found a very interesting way of marketing a mixture of Judaism and paganism to the masses.

[Mudhammam]

God is a title and not a name. Example:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit.

For the son to ask the Father anything would be no different than any son to ask any father something who shared the same title.

Did you know the Greeks were monotheistic too?
God Zeus
God Apollo
God Poseidon
=
ONE God.

[Nope]

It's like a used car salesman telling you that when the car breaks down he will personally come and restore it to a pristine condition and guarantees from that moment forward the car will flawlessly run forever with no fuel. All that's asked of you is that you suck his dick every day until the car breaks down.

See how confused you are about the strong message that is being relayed from the cross? what weaker method could have been used to give you clarity about the freedom we have found in Christ?

Strong message? What is your definition of strong and weak in regards to this topic? What freedom did you gain? If you mean freedom from sin than you have to prove that you don't commit any acts that are considered sins in your religion.

[Drich]

Another question is..why would Jesus ask if his Father had forsaken him...if he is his Father. It's like Gollum arguing with Smeagol, it's insane.

Some Christians think that Jesus actually became sin or somehow took on our literal sin while on the cross. I had a pastor who claimed that god could not look on sin so he could no longer see Jesus. At least, I think that was his explanation. The pastor's explanation countered the idea of an omnipotent god so completely that I felt my former religious brain begin to explode.

Jesus asking "Father why have you forsaken me" is what I am talking about Jesus being seperated from the Father, for the sins of man.

The Father forsaking the son is not about line of sight, but about removing The Son from the position of Glory He once had. about dethroneing Christ/Striping Him of rank and title and punishing Him for our sins.

Not only did He have to endure the physical punishment so we could grasp the Spiritual costs Christ underwent, He also had to endure the Spiritual costs.

---

God is a title and not a name. Example:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit.

For the son to ask the Father anything would be no different than any son to ask any father something who shared the same title.

Did you know the Greeks were monotheistic too?
God Zeus
God Apollo
God Poseidon
=
ONE God.

Ah no...

What was Zeus God of?

What was Poesidon God of?

What was Apollo God of?

Outside their realms they were weak.

One God refers to the oneness of God over everything.

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Strong message? What is your definition of strong and weak in regards to this topic?

There is no greater love than for a man to lay his life down for another.

What freedom did you gain? If you mean freedom from sin than you have to prove that you don't commit any acts that are considered sins in your religion.

Freedom from sin mean freedom from the persecution I would normally have to endure for the sins I committed. It means one is free from the law as a means to the righteousness needed to be deemed worthy to enter Heaven. Rather than legalistically follow the law, I now have traded my sin for the righteousness of Christ. So when God see me, He does not see my sin, but 'sees' the righteousness of Christ on me.

It's like being the brother of Tom Hanks. Yes he maybe welcome on one of his sets or even to the oscars, but he is not there because of his own merrit. He is only there because Tom vouched for Him. When people see Him they don't see a guy who job demands that he be allowed in, they see Tom's brother.

Like wise Christians are only worthy of Heaven because Christ will vouch for us. It is not because we like Tom's brother merrit the prestege, It's because Christ vouches for us.

[Ravenshire]

That's the thing. We truly don't know what the whole Cost was. The bible does not tell us everything Christ endured or will/has lost for His sacrifice on the cross, but I believe it did go beyond what He experienced on the cross. I don't think eternity future will look the same for Jesus as eternity past did.

(emphasis is mine)

So, to square your circle you'll make shit up out of whole cloth?!?

If the buy-bull doesn't tell the whole story, why should we believe any of it? What the fuck is your gawd trying to hide?!?

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Never understood the "sacrifice on the cross" thing, he died then got better after 3 days and went home to his dad... more like an inconvenience than a sacrifice.

Jesus died had a bad weekend for your sins.

[Nope]

Freedom from sin mean freedom from the persecution I would normally have to endure for the sins I committed. It means one is free from the law as a means to the righteousness needed to be deemed worthy to enter Heaven. Rather than legalistically follow the law, I now have traded my sin for the righteousness of Christ. So when God see me, He does not see my sin, but 'sees' the righteousness of Christ on me.

So, Drich, you believe that even though you commit sins similar to a nonbeliever, you won't be judged for those same sins? God doesn't want good behavior, he wants adoration.

So, god sacrificed himself not to save humans but to get lots of adoration and praise for doing so. He didn't really save humans from sin, according to you. He supposedly made it so that he will ignore their sins but they won't really be any better than non Christians. We should invent a new omni word to apply to your god, omni-ego

[Mr Greene]

Another question is..why would Jesus ask if his Father had forsaken him...if he is his Father. It's like Gollum arguing with Smeagol, it's insane.

God is a title and not a name. Example:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit.

For the son to ask the Father anything would be no different than any son to ask any father something who shared the same title.

So you believe in Arianism?

[Drich]

That's the thing. We truly don't know what the whole Cost was. The bible does not tell us everything Christ endured or will/has lost for His sacrifice on the cross, but I believe it did go beyond what He experienced on the cross. I don't think eternity future will look the same for Jesus as eternity past did.

(emphasis is mine)

So, to square your circle you'll make shit up out of whole cloth?!?

If the buy-bull doesn't tell the whole story, why should we believe any of it? What the fuck is your gawd trying to hide?!?

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Never understood the "sacrifice on the cross" thing, he died then got better after 3 days and went home to his dad... more like an inconvenience than a sacrifice.

Jesus died had a bad weekend for your sins.

you shouldn't just mindlessly believe anything anyone says they make up.

You should however ask for the evidences that leads people to believe what they believe and then question it, and then make up your own mind.

Also know I clearly draw the line between what I believe and what the bible says as Paul does in His own writtings. So understand nothing I have done here is out of line. (even though your 'outrage' would suggest otherwise.)

[FatAndFaithless]

you shouldn't just mindlessly believe anything anyone says they make up.

You should however ask for the evidences that leads people to believe what they believe and then question it, and then make up your own mind.

Drich...Drich pls...