Indoctrinating Children in Religion

[dyresand]

That's right. Some people seem to have this absurd notion that we indoctrinate them into atheism, which doesn't even make any sense. They also seem to think we would keep them away from ever hearing about religion, like it's the measles. It's ridiculous. Once again, they have bugger all idea what atheism is. It certainly doesn't mean trying to stop your kid making religious choices. With a good grounding in critical thinking, I'd say you have a good chance they'll turn out atheist, but that's their choice.

I know right its like you talk to an atheist chances are we know about all your bullshit you guys believe in we are just one god further into not believing. I mean it bothers me now that there is hardly any black atheists and its like...why...... just why did you guys forget about history this is the same god.... i know a few a few black atheists. The thing is with theists they are afraid of the truth and the delusion is much more comforting than the real world that is the only thing i could think of besides hell.

[Mr Greene]

And I wouldn't be teaching them about religion at home.

Personally I intend to teach my son as much as I can about the various religions out there. Hopefully it'll save him the time I wasted researching them.

[RobertE]

That's right. Some people seem to have this absurd notion that we indoctrinate them into atheism, which doesn't even make any sense. They also seem to think we would keep them away from ever hearing about religion, like it's the measles. It's ridiculous. Once again, they have bugger all idea what atheism is. It certainly doesn't mean trying to stop your kid making religious choices. With a good grounding in critical thinking, I'd say you have a good chance they'll turn out atheist, but that's their choice.

I know right its like you talk to an atheist chances are we know about all your bullshit you guys believe in we are just one god further into not believing. I mean it bothers me now that there is hardly any black atheists and its like...why...... just why did you guys forget about history this is the same god.... i know a few a few black atheists. The thing is with theists they are afraid of the truth and the delusion is much more comforting than the real world that is the only thing i could think of besides hell.

It is simply a question of being open-minded. We have mixed-race marriages, same-sex marriages, same sex couple adoption of children and many, many more other examples too long to be listed. People still live by the Torah, Bible or the Koran and it is about time that parents let their children at least have access to literature that teaches them to open their minds, and to think outside of religion. For some, it is too late, but it is upto the next generation of parents and also the schools to allow children read anything written by atheists, that way, children can actually make their own minds up as to which path they want to take in their lives. I have two daughters, they are not baptised and I have been chatting to them about Richard Dawkins, Charles Darwin, Sam Harris and demonstrating how they think freely and how happy they are in their lives.

[dyresand]

I know right its like you talk to an atheist chances are we know about all your bullshit you guys believe in we are just one god further into not believing. I mean it bothers me now that there is hardly any black atheists and its like...why...... just why did you guys forget about history this is the same god.... i know a few a few black atheists. The thing is with theists they are afraid of the truth and the delusion is much more comforting than the real world that is the only thing i could think of besides hell.

It is simply a question of being open-minded. We have mixed-race marriages, same-sex marriages, same sex couple adoption of children and many, many more other examples too long to be listed. People still live by the Torah, Bible or the Koran and it is about time that parents let their children at least have access to literature that teaches them to open their minds, and to think outside of religion. For some, it is too late, but it is upto the next generation of parents and also the schools to allow children read anything written by atheists, that way, children can actually make their own minds up as to which path they want to take in their lives. I have two daughters, they are not baptised and I have been chatting to them about Richard Dawkins, Charles Darwin, Sam Harris and demonstrating how they think freely and how happy they are in their lives.

That's really good only if theists parents did the same thing though but they highly likely wont.

[RobertE]

It is simply a question of being open-minded. We have mixed-race marriages, same-sex marriages, same sex couple adoption of children and many, many more other examples too long to be listed. People still live by the Torah, Bible or the Koran and it is about time that parents let their children at least have access to literature that teaches them to open their minds, and to think outside of religion. For some, it is too late, but it is upto the next generation of parents and also the schools to allow children read anything written by atheists, that way, children can actually make their own minds up as to which path they want to take in their lives. I have two daughters, they are not baptised and I have been chatting to them about Richard Dawkins, Charles Darwin, Sam Harris and demonstrating how they think freely and how happy they are in their lives.

That's really good only if theists parents did the same thing though but they highly likely wont.

I made that point earlier in my post but using different words. You say "they highly likely won't." I am not so sure, as RobValue has already pointed out in one of my posts, now that we have access to the internet, things are slowly turning around. Notable atheists are having debates and they are freely available to watch on youtube and to be honest, someone religious who decides to listen to a debate between an atheist or a number 6 agnostic (as Richard Dawkins likes to describe himself) and a priest/Imam etc, I am pretty sure that they will find that from a religious point of view, their argument is limited and is set in stone and perhaps there will be a moment where the religious child or teenager will actually start questioning his/her own faith and finally realise that there is a great deal more to learn in life. The internet is the answer, the material is there if people want to look for it.

[dyresand]

That's really good only if theists parents did the same thing though but they highly likely wont.

I made that point earlier in my post but using different words. You say "they highly likely won't." I am not so sure, as RobValue has already pointed out in one of my posts, now that we have access to the internet, things are slowly turning around. Notable atheists are having debates and they are freely available to watch on youtube and to be honest, someone religious who decides to listen to a debate between an atheist or a number 6 agnostic (as Richard Dawkins likes to describe himself) and a priest/Imam etc, I am pretty sure that they will find that from a religious point of view, their argument is limited and is set in stone and perhaps there will be a moment where the religious child or teenager will actually start questioning his/her own faith and finally realise that there is a great deal more to learn in life. The internet is the answer, the material is there if people want to look for it.

Perhaps but its still up to the individual to make that first step and even still that person will have the irrational fears that are packaged with religion.

[Zenith]

Regarding the education of children by the theists (christians, jews, muslims),

What I'd appreciate from theist parents:
- If you don't teach your child about the perils of hell and Satan (in the meaning, that himself is in danger of them) until he reaches an age like 16. If you teach your 10 years old child that he may suffer for eternity, you'll only traumatize him.
- If you teach him more & talk to him more about God than about Satan. Really, there are christians out there who only talk about "Satan's there, Satan's there, Satan's trying to do this to you, that to you, etc." It sounds a bit more appropriate, and nicer, if you talk more about a positive, good willing God, than if you talked about the evil Satan. Besides, no matter how angry or capricious or fastidious the God you preach actually is, he's a much nicer imaginary person to talk about, than Satan. I even heard once a mother shouting at her ~3 years old child, when he dropped a candy on the ground, "Don't touch it, it's the Devil!"
- If you allow him to forsake his faith, once he becomes an adult (i.e. 18 years old) - i.e. do not treat him badly if he is does, or threaten him that you would kick him out of your house or never speak to him again, or etc.
- If you understand that a child (e.g. 10 years old) is not a christian, nor a muslim, nor anything else. At that age, he is far from understanding the term God as you do, and whatever he believes, it cannot be considered "faith".
- If you do not consider him a true christian / muslim / etc. until he reaches an age like 18. Pentecostals & baptists do not baptize babies, and that's okay, even though they kinda strongly influence (even, force) their children to be baptized, and thus accept the religion when they're 15 or 16 years old. It's quite fucked up to "teach" / indoctrinate your child in your religion, and when he reaches an age where he can consent (or reject), to call him that he "became an apostate" if he forsakes the faith he... never actually had. Also, it is equally bad to force a child to accept your faith officially when he reaches the age where he can consent / reject it.
- If you focus your religious teachings more on moral values (i.e. treating the others nicely, basically the "good" teachings in the Bible), than rituals or submissiveness to the clergymen or donating money to your church. It's the things he'll understand as with higher priority. Focusing on rituals will only turn him into a great hypocrite (where he pleases God even though he's a total asshole). Focusing on submitting himself to the clergymen (priest / imam / pastor) will only make him a mindless slave.

What I'd appreciate from theists, regarding their own behaviour:
- If your religious traditions / doctrine have nothing to do with corpses or their desecration. Those things are quite "unholy".
- If you don't count your country as a "Nation of God", i.e. as if everyone who lives in your country must live by your faith and by your rules. You think a specific thing is a sin if you do it? Don't do it then, but don't try to force nonbelievers into following the commandments of your God.
- If you don't insist in converting people: If a man answers "no", leave him alone!
- If you don't pollute the atmosphere by noise & threats like "Accept my doctrine or go to hell!" A statement like "If you don't do what I say, you'll burn in Hell for eternity" is no less offending than, "If you don't do what I say, I'll beat the shit out of you!" Besides, you don't want to be harassed by atheists knocking at your door insisting that you must forsake God, nor do you hear atheists on the streets shouting "If you don't forsake God, you're a retard!" In other words, bother only those people who agree on talking to you on the subject. Religious Forums are also a good place to talk, because people there expect discussions on the subject.

What I'd expect from the State (whichever country), regarding religion:
- If it prohibited religious conversion of minors. Really, this should be considered a crime. Talk with a child on religion, perhaps, but ask him to accept your faith, that's bad.
- If it didn't register any child as belonging to a particular religion. When someone reaches 18 years old, then, himself should go to register himself as a Christian Orthodox or Christian Baptist, or Sunni Muslim or whatever. The state should not consider a child "muslim" or "christian orthodox" or anything.
- If it stopped giving money from the taxes of non religious people to any religious institution.
- If its officials stopped talking about God or making declarations of faith: It is discriminations to all unbelievers. The politicians & governors & mayors & etc. must serve all citizens equally, regardless of their religion.

P.S. Something I consider very disturbing is when I see a minor (e.g. 12 years old child), of atheist / agnostic parents, who converts to Islam (or became a Jehovah Witness), because he "found the truth" or "found meaning in life" or whatever. And whenever I hear an agnostic / atheist, say adult, who converted to a religion like Islam because he "found peace" there, or "had a hole / gap in his life that was now filled", or "found meaning in life", or whatever, it's somewhat weird. I see him as man with emotional deficiencies falling into the net of a religion, where they sell him emotions, and they take away his life.

[Smaug]

Religions have no place in children's developement and education aside from being presented explicitly as myths (just like Greek or Norse myths). Rational thinking comes first. Only after growing up intellectually and psyhologically a person may truly turn to eternal questions.

[robvalue]

Very good points Zenith.

It is ridiculous to say that your child "is Catholic" or "is a muslim" when they've only just been born. It's just nonsense. They don't even understand the wild claims associated with what they are supposed to be, let alone accept them. It just seems to be admitting that you can't handle the idea of your child being anything other than exactly what you want them to be.

If that's your mindset, don't have children. You're meant to love them as much as possible whatever choices they make. "Leaving" a religion they never agreed to join in the first place is not something to be angry with them about, and not something they should have to go through. Don't sign up infants for your cult, it's disgusting.

[Mr Greene]

Personally what I'd like from Theist parents and "leaders";

No genital mutilation!

One argument that comes up is that people wouldn't choose to have the procedure performed in adulthood, yet it is performed as a coming of age ceremony in numerous tribal societies to young adults in full view at the centre of their villages.