How Muslims believed earth was spherical long before anybody mentions it.

[Alex K]

The idea that Europeans believed the Earth to be flat in medieval times is pure myth. If you honestly care get this book and read it:

It appears that geocentrism and flat earth got mixed up in people's minds there...

Isn't it true that most people didn't want to support Columbus because they knew that India was simply too far away going west?
I mean, if America hadn't been there in between, they'd all simply have died, and a good scholar would have known that...

[Minimalist]

So... if they knew this, what difference does it make to anything?

They want a Noble Prize for Muhammad's hard work.

Probably annoys the piss out of the OP that so many more Noble Prizes have gone to jews as opposed to muslims. I suspect the reason for that is that their scientific knowledge has not progressed since the 8th century.

[Regina]

The Greeks, the Egyptians, Celts, more than likely the ancient Chinese, the geographically isolated Maya... Yeah they all knew it too.

[ReptilianPeon]

Hello AtlasS2,

Thanks for making my day a little more delightful. Sort of. Brace yourself for a mammoth post.

Oh goody, Dawah to the Atheist Forum – this should be fun! It seems one can never have too many Brownie Points from Allah and this desire to accumulate as many Brownie Points as possible as lead you to the Lion’s Den, so to speak. The rewards are great after all – greater than receiving the best type of camel (to quote our enemy, as Atheists, that fumbling idiot, Hamza Andreas Tzortis*). Well - brave Human - allow me to pick apart your post.
*source (10:42 in the video):

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http://youtu.be/vIDjX_rlCd0?t=10m42s

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You make so many assertions that it’s hard to take you seriously. Where are your sources? You appear to be simply using a stock argument you copied/heard from somewhere. The trouble with people such as yourself, no disrespect, is that you only provide/ask for sources when it suits you to do so.

In many cases, history is written by the victors. As I gave human brain the chance to differ above old grudges, it didn't.

Granted – that’s one of the reasons why I ignore Hadith as much as I can. The Hadith are full of names and I can’t help but feel that many of the names, especially those linking Muhammad to Abraham/Ishmael, are simply pulled out of thin air. Sometimes I might refer to memorable Hadith for my own amusement though. No offense, but there’s some quite ridiculous content in the Hadith. For example, would Humans have been better off with gills instead of noses (because Iblis apparently hates water)?

The Muslims were the nemesis of the west since the time of the Eastern Roman Empire, it was for two main reasons :

To say that the Ummah has been the nemesis of the West since the Romans/Byzantines is simply not true. It’s a gross rewriting of history. I can provide several examples where the Caliphate/Ummah have been on the side of the West.

The Republic of Venice benefitted greatly from peace with the Ottomans (video) because the Ottomans allowed Venetian trade ships to pass through their waters:

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN-II_jBzzo

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Secondly, apparently you’ve never heard of the Crimean War? The Caliphate was on the same side as the West (i.e. British, French and Sardinians) against the Russians. Maybe they were allies of convenience, but the fact remains that they the Ummah has not always been an enemy of the West.

In both World Wars, many people from the Ummah fought with the West against the Germans, etc. For example they fought in the British Indian Army. In fact many people across the world helped the West and you can find Arabic inscriptions on World War One era buildings in France, as shown in this short video by the BBC.

I kindly ask you to stop perpetuating this “us and them” mentality.

1)Muslims were mainly Arabs : Rome discriminated against Arabs ; and to them native Arab tribes were only frontline pawns used to hit Persia.
2)Muslims weren't Christian.

Sure whatever, but even if we grant you that assertion, the fact remains that there are many Arabs who are Christian. Today, the numbers dwindle, thanks to the actions of the Fascists that control large parts of Arabia. Don’t you think that Rome (the Vatican) would want to protect Arabian Churches that are in communion with it? Why would Rome hate all of the Arabs?

The Jizya is an evil tax which encourages people to change their religion because they will want to pay less tax. Many people didn’t convert simply because they thought this new religion was “the truth”. They converted because they wanted to lessen the burden on their families.

Aside from "who started it", it is proven historically that Rome butchered Arab tribes who befriended the prophet, and crucified them on the borders of the levant.

Surely that’s important though. When did the Arabs and the Romans start hating each other? Was it before or after Muhammad? Even if it was before Muhammad it doesn’t prevent the flow of information between people living in the Roman Empire and Arabs.

Muhammad was a merchant, and, as a merchant, he would have come into contact with lots of people – all sorts of people. He would have needed good numeracy and communication skills but -above all – a good memory. He needed to know the best route from point A to point B. Obviously he would have had to have been reasonably knowledgeable. I personally think that it would have been more amazing and, dare I say it, miraculous, if he could read/write given that even basic literacy skills were rare amongst Arabs at that time. Even today, Arab countries such the Yemen, Somalia and Morocco have very poor rates of literacy.

Anyhow, that grudge continued until this day, I always asked myself why Europe ignored to refer in its history books, that the Quran is first book to ever mentions directly that earth is round & even padded in its core.

Again, not true. You are the one who is ignoring the history books. The West is made up of many countries and not all of them are staunch/blind allies of the United States. But I’ll be interested to see which Quran translations you are using. Hopefully not a version of the Quran that’s been translated after the science in the Quran narrative took off (and has therefore been influenced by it) such as Saheeh International.

Muslim scholars -since the 12th century- also believed the same thing blindly from the Quran, and again the book told the truth.

Which scholars in particular are you referring to? Source, please?

First, I will show you the Quranic verses that says that loud & clear :
( 5 ) He created the heavens and earth in truth. He shapes the night over the day in a round-shape, and shapes the day over the night in a round shape, and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. Unquestionably, He is the Exalted in Might, the Perpetual Forgiver. Page 458

It would have been nice of you to tell us that the verse which you have provided is Quran 39:5. I see nothing special in the verse. All that it's saying is that there is a day/night cycle. You seem to be imposing things on the verse which were never intended. The Tafisr for Quran 39:5 agree with the English translation and say nothing about the Earth being round! So you are not only are you flying in the face of the the major Quran translators. You are flying in the face of the scholars such as Al-Jalalayn and Ibn ‘Abbâs too!

Are you for real?

Then again, Quran interpretation is always subjective because Allah didn't provide humanity with any Tafisr. If the Quran was actually unambiguous there would be no need for the commentaries. The Quran is often so vague and also quite repetitive I've noticed. It's hardly what I would call divine revelation.

#Verse notes :
1) In translations to English, this verse is translated wrong. The word used is "wraps" which is a forgery & a totally wrong translation.
Arabic wise, the original word is "Yokawer يكور", which means "shapes something in a round way". Ancient Arabs used this word for the turban : "The man Yokawer his turban : wrap it around his head in a round manner".
While the word used by translators "wraps" means in arabic "Yoghshi يغشي", which means literally "covering something, wraps it up", it is a totally different word describing a different action.

Are you saying that you know better than all of the great Quran translators? Why should I believe the conspiracy theories of some random website? Are you saying Marmaduke Pickthall, Abdallah Yusuf Ali and Arthur John Arberry were all wrong and couldn’t understand Arabic properly? It looks like whoever you got this argument from allowing their desires as a believer to cloud their, and ultimately your, interpretation of the Quran. I have shown that the Tafsir and major Quran translations are in agreement on Quran 39:5.

Arabic-Arabic translation :
http://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/يكور/

This website is of no use to me and means nothing to me.

2)The biggest bomb though, is that through the Islamic world, people believed "blindly" in the verse, and unlike Europe, Muslims believed earth was both round & in a ball shape.

Sure, whatever. Anybody who has seen a Lunar eclipse (something which occurs several times a year) will know that the Earth is round. It’s not difficult.
It’s obvious people have known the Earth is round for thousands of years and Muhammad would not have needed the Romans to tell him...

Muslim scholars (who knew nothing about science but from reading the Quran), mentioned it loud & clear in their books, the most famous is "Ibn Timeia" who lived around 1200 AD.

Umm, okay? How do you know he got his knowledge from the Quran and not from receiving an education? You are providing lots of links to Arabic websites (which you know we can’t verify). It appears that you are one of these shysters lurks behind the Arabic language and who banks on the fact that nobody will be able to verify the Arabic.

You can find his book online (and IGNORED) here :
http://ar.wikisource.org/wiki/مجموع_الفت...اء_والصفات

In English, please.

He has a whole chapter named "In the telling that earth is spherical shaped" :
http://ar.wikisource.org/wiki/مجموع_الفت...روية_الأرض

So what? Anybody who looks in the night sky will know the Earth is round. I’ve mentioned Lunar eclipses before but all the other bodies in the night sky are spherical, so why should the Earth be any different?

I couldn't find an English translation for this ancient book -Of course-, though a simple google translation from Arabic to English would be sufficient.

That’s convenient. It’s hard not to view this statement cynically.

They even believed in gravity, check it out. The Quran also mentions gravity in other verses.

I admire your bravery for posting here and doing the Dawah here, I really do. How about giving us any Quran verses that you believe mention gravity so that we can scrutinize them?

Aside from this ancient scholar (Ibn Taimeia), other famous Muslims said that throughout the ages, but most of their writings are in arabic and translation is hard, so I brought what I could.
The hypocrisy of history writing just amuses me. There is not even a word of mention to this in European sources..not even 1.

Maybe you haven’t looked hard enough in the English sources?

Ancient greek believed earth was coin-shaped, not spherical with hollow interior (despite what fills the interior ; today we know it's lava & molten metals ; and btw the Quran also shows what interior of earth actually is with a direct reference to gravity).

Can you provide a source for all this? Which Greeks believed that the Earth was coin shaped? Which Greeks believed that the Earth had a hollow interior?

Previously you boldly asserted that the Quran says that Earth is “padded in its core” without providing a verse for us to examine. How can a liquid (you mention lava and molten metals) be padding? Either the Quran says that Earth has a liquid core or the Quran talks about padding. Not both as the statements contradict each other. In each case you have yet to provide a verse.

You have said that the Quran mentions gravity too, twice, but you have yet to provide verse. Please provide a verse so that we can examine it. I would be grateful for some verses.

Secondly,
Ancient greek believed the interior was "the underworld", another hellish dimension. Also believed in the "end of the world" theory, that at the end of the coin, there are no locations to go to.

If the interior of the Earth contains the “the underworld” then it can’t be hollow, can it? If the interior of the Earth is completely hollow than there must be nothing inside of it, right? Or maybe I’m mistaken?

Saying earth is spherical is a totally different thing. The verse -if you read the topic- says "yokawer = shapes in a spherical/round manner", this is totally not the "coin-like" earth that the greeks believed in.

Can you provide sources that demonstrate that the majority of Greeks believed that the Earth was coin shaped? And so what if the Quran says the Earth is round? If the Earth was actually flat then you'd bee telling us that the Quran says that the Earth is flat because the Quran is so flexible like that. [url=http://www.quranx.com/71.19]Quran 71.19 compares the Earth to a carpet and Quran 20:53 compares the Earth to a bed.

Not to mention it's a verse. The Muslim scholars didn't "discover it", the prophet told it & Muslims believed it. I guess he didn't go to greece before, unless you want to claim that Mohammed peace be upon him was a scientist.

The Byzantines spoke Greek. Greek was the official language of the Eastern Roman empire. In Muhammad time, and even before in the time of Jesus, Greek was the language you used if you wanted to get your message heard. He didn’t need to go to Greece. True, Greek was on its way out by Muhammad’s time but he was a merchant so he would have done a lot of travelling. Muhammad was not stuck a bubble and he was certainly not surrounded by a force field that prevented him from acquiring knowledge.

Since this post took several hours of my day to complete I expect a proper (well sourced) reply! A lie can take seconds to create but much longer to refute. Please be stop spouting this rubbish.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's unsurprising to find parallels between greek and "muslim" (probably ought to use a better word here to express what we mean?) philosophy. The expanding state incorporated a great deal of -everything-...and those incorporated people did the brunt of the work in that incorporation. In this case, assyrians, particularly, commenced a massive translation of greek works. These are the translations which were brought, by the moors, to spain (who then translated them into latin)...which was in part responsible for the european renaissance.

You sure...that there isn't a single mention of this.......eh?

[Brakeman]

1) In translations to English, this verse is translated wrong. The word used is "wraps" which is a forgery & a totally wrong translation.
Arabic wise, the original word is "Yokawer يكور", which means "shapes something in a round way". Ancient Arabs used this word for the turban : "The man Yokawer his turban : wrap it around his head in a round manner".

While the word used by translators "wraps" means in arabic "Yoghshi يغشي", which means literally "covering something, wraps it up", it is a totally different word describing a different action.

Those damned English translators! I hope you cut their throat for that! The infidels!

"arabic "Yoghshi يغشي","
Yes, it may be spelled that way, but it's pronounced "throat wabbler mangrove!"

[Faith No More]

That's a funny argument considering the Greeks figured it out long before Islam even existed.

ETA: Doh, beaten to the punch.

[Regina]

It might be hard to judge this since we're living in a world where we now know it's round. However, to me it seems almost like common sense that it's round even to primitive man that had no scientific knowledge.

I mean, when the sun sets, you can still see tall trees and high hills/cliffs being illuminated by sunlight for longer than the ground. That wouldn't happen so dramatically if the Earth is flat. That's probably how the Egyptians first recognised it, by noticing that the sun sets "later" if you're standing at the top of the pyramids than if you're standing on the ground next to the pyramids.

If you think about China as well, that was a civilisation with extensive latitudinal range, even from a very early point in history. They would have wanted an explanation as to why it was generally warmer in the southern part of their lands than it is in the North. Sure, at face value that doesn't necessarily mean the Earth is round, but do some investigating and it's not a hard hypothesis to fall upon.

[Mystic]

It might be hard to judge this since we're living in a world where we now know it's round. However, to me it seems almost like common sense that it's round even to primitive man that had no scientific knowledge.

I mean, when the sun sets, you can still see tall trees and high hills/cliffs being illuminated by sunlight for longer than the ground. That wouldn't happen so dramatically if the Earth is flat. That's probably how the Egyptians first recognised it, by noticing that the sun sets "later" if you're standing at the top of the pyramids than if you're standing on the ground next to the pyramids.

If you think about China as well, that was a civilisation with extensive latitudinal range, even from a very early point in history. They would have wanted an explanation as to why it was generally warmer in the southern part of their lands than it is in the North. Sure, at face value that doesn't necessarily mean the Earth is round, but do some investigating and it's not a hard hypothesis to fall upon.

This is true. It's by no means a miracle.

[Thumpalumpacus]

The Muslims copied the Greeks. What's the fuss?