How Muslims believed earth was spherical long before anybody mentions it.

[The Valkyrie]

Ancient greek believed earth was coin-shaped, not spherical with hollow interior (despite what fills the interior ; today we know it's lava & molten metals ; and btw the Quran also shows what interior of earth actually is with a direct reference to gravity).

Ancient greek believed the interior was "the underworld", another hellish dimension. Also believed in the "end of the world" theory, that at the end of the coin, there are no locations to go to.

Have you heard of Eratosthenes? He had to assume a round Earth in order to do his calculations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthene...cumference

Saying earth is spherical is a totally different thing. The verse -if you read the topic- says "yokawer = shapes in a spherical/round manner", this is totally not the "coin-like" earth that the greeks believed in.

Give me the link to that verse in Arabic. I don't think you've given us the reference yet. What sura and aya is it exactly?

And with this, the discussion is won.

Islam has been around for 1,500 years.

The Jewish texts, from which the Koran came, state that the Earth is, at best, slightly curved, but makes no mention of a sphere.

The only people that "science in holy books" arguments convince are those who follow the book or already believe it.

Not those who can counter with this thing we call "evidence"

[professor]

Atlas, how can you be so loyal to a teaching which has messed you up so much personally?
Islam, being the foundation of life where you are.

[dyresand]

Atlas, how can you be so loyal to a teaching which has messed you up so much personally?
Islam, being the foundation of life where you are.

Your one to talk christianity is just as bad as islam and the other abrahamic religions.
Pot this is the kettle.

[WinterHold]

Irrational

It is unlikely, however, that Eratosthenes got an accurate measurement of the circumference of the Earth, given three errors in the assumptions he made:[16]

That Alexandria and Syene lie on the same meridian.
That the distance between Alexandria and Syene is 5000 stades.
That the Earth is a sphere.

I wasn't discussing the circumference of earth, or the greek philosophy of viewing earth as "a coin" with ending borders ; mostly referred to as "the end of the world". It's about earth being a sphere ; a ball, is so different than assuming the obvious observation that earth is round.

Give me the link to that verse in Arabic. I don't think you've given us the reference yet. What sura and aya is it exactly?

http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

I never lie about my sources. Especially the Quran. I take the words from its core.

Alex K

It's not the diameter, or an attempt to "measure" earth's circumference. It's the bald claim the Quran presented that nobody ever said or believed in for a fact ; which is "Earth is a spherical shaped ball".

Saying earth is a ball, is so different from trying to measure its circumference or size. Saying earth is a ball, that contains "Heavy weights inside" is a bald claim, Alex K. That's the difference.

To support my point more :


( 25 ) Have We not made the earth a container
( 26 ) Of the living and the dead?
( 27 ) And We placed therein lofty, firmly set mountains and have given you to drink sweet water. Page 581

http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

( 1 ) When the earth is shaken with its [final] earthquake
( 2 ) And the earth discharges its Athqal (translated to burdens ; more accurately it should be translated to "weights" #check note below).
( 3 ) And man says, "What is [wrong] with it?" -
( 4 ) That Day, it will report its news
( 5 ) Because your Lord has commanded it.

#note : yet another translation error. the word " Athqal=اثقال " is used in the verse, not "Burden = اوزار". Athqal is used mainly for physically heavy stuff, while "awzar" for psychologically heavy things (i.e depression, sins...etc). So earth shall spit its physical burdens = athqal.

http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

robvalue

It means Europe erased that the Quran mentioned it first & replaced it with the story of the poor guy who got toasted by the Church for saying it?

It means history is bullshit.

Irrational

Not arbitrary, Irrational, but "accurate". The arbitrary translation is the one you find in the links. Notice how I'm translating the verse "literally" without replacing one word for another "turning yokawer to yoghshee", now that is arbitrary.

No. In Arabic there is already a word for rolling and that is "لف يلف لفاً" or go back to "كسا يكسي" or غطى يغطي. All these are used to describe what you meant : rolling something, over something else.

But, "كور يكور تكويراً" is a different word, referring to the rolling of something until it looks like a ball..see the difference ? how would you do that, if earth itself wasn't a sphere ?
Ancient arabic doesn't tolerate grammar like today's arabic.

And to make it worse for the OP, the same verse talks about the the sun running its course for a specified time (in the sky during the daytime, that is). Not at all scientific.

??
http://www.universetoday.com/60174/does-the-sun-move/

Dude the sun has a course, along with the whole solar system, orbiting the center of the milky way.

Check this verse which told people about it 1400 years ago before NASA :

( 37 ) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are [left] in darkness.
( 38 ) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
( 39 ) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
( 40 ) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming. Page 442.

http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

About the sun's orbit and how the quran spoke of it accurately ; that's another topic : )

Cato

When somebody else discovers something (even if he was an ali baba living in the dessert), you shut up, swallow your nerd complex, and admit that he beat you to it.

The medieval European scholars didn't do that, the churched burned any person giving credit to Muslims or even practice the way of science that god showed to humanity via the Quran. Works got stolen to be re-produced under European authors, the amount of books stolen during the crusades is alone a crime against humanity. Dante's inferno was stolen from رسائل الغفران للكاتب ابو العلاء المعري. that's just one small example.

I'm a guy who appreciates science, in my field of Computer Science, I refer to the people who taught me & discovered new things..
Not burn them alive then steal their work & re-produce it in my name & language.

Anyhow, saying earth is "a round coin" that has an end, with a hades under it (proof that nobody ever believed earth is spherical, Zues at the end of the world spraying thunder on his spoiled kids), excuse me but that is not science.

Europe had no credit in this.. this was taught to a nomad, via god. Unless you want to convince me, that the nomad had all the knowledge of greek?

I call that an inferiority complex, covered with a thick layer of superiority complex.

Minimalist

Actually not, since I'm not a nationalist or a tribal person, I do believe all humans are my family. So gay right ? I mean Minimalist, I already have tons of problems with Muslims too, you can read my topics about how Muslims destroyed their own region for gold, oil & tribalism.

We are all humans, Minimalist. The disaster is when you turn from human, to a tribal/nationalist neanderthal who hate others & exterminate them in Millions if they had better lives, then erase their history. (Cough Cough Cortez's crusade ; cough cough burning mayan libraries).

But nowadays, there is a big scientific & liberal community that cares not about Jews, Muslims or Atheists ; just appreciates talent & achievement.

MrNoMorePropaganda

Hey, saw the huge post :/ ..
I will reply to you very soon along with the rest of the guys ; consider this comment a placeholder

[robvalue]

Europe erased that the quran mentioned it first? What, they removed the verses you talk about from the quran? If it's as clear as you say, the evidence is still there for all to see. In what way have they covered it up?

If in fact your case here is very weak, then why should they credit it and not give credit to a more substantial claimant?

History is bullshit? I think that's rather an overreaction.

[TubbyTubby]

Atlas, how can you be so loyal to a teaching which has messed you up so much personally?
Islam, being the foundation of life where you are.

So we can assume that, had you been born to a rural Egyptian family, you would have rejected your 'birthright' indoctrination of Islam?

Sometimes I don't know if you're being serious or not.

[jesus_wept]

Somebody ought to tell their clerics and scientists that the earth is spherical and the sun orbits it because some of them appear to have missed the memo that informed them the cosmology of the Quran has been changed to suit the nonbelievers.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-31851.html

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_FaNg_nxqns

[GrandizerII]

I wasn't discussing the circumference of earth, or the greek philosophy of viewing earth as "a coin" with ending borders ; mostly referred to as "the end of the world". It's about earth being a sphere ; a ball, is so different than assuming the obvious observation that earth is round.

Eratosthenes assumed the Earth was round as in spherical. A coin is not a sphere or a ball ...

Irrational

Not arbitrary, Irrational, but "accurate". The arbitrary translation is the one you find in the links.

Then why did you post the link if you don't agree with the definitions provided there? You understand that I got the definition from that link, right?

No. In Arabic there is already a word for rolling and that is "لف يلف لفاً" or go back to "كسا يكسي" or غطى يغطي. All these are used to describe what you meant : rolling something, over something else.

According to the link you posted, "youkawwer" can mean "yalouff" (to roll).

By the way, "youghatti" means to cover, not to roll.

??
http://www.universetoday.com/60174/does-the-sun-move/

Dude the sun has a course, along with the whole solar system, orbiting the center of the milky way.

A parsimonious reading of the verse shows that it's referring to the common misunderstanding among the ancients that the sun actually moved in the sky.

You will not find anywhere in the Qur'an that the Earth moves in a course and around the sun. There's a reason for that.

Check this verse which told people about it 1400 years ago before NASA :

( 37 ) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are [left] in darkness.
( 38 ) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
( 39 ) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
( 40 ) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming. Page 442.

So the sun has a stopping point???

Color me unimpressed.

[Cato]

When somebody else discovers something (even if he was an ali baba living in the dessert), you shut up, swallow your nerd complex, and admit that he beat you to it.

Yet you are incapable of this. You are a raving fucking idiot if you think Muslims were the first to discover or widely accept the shape of the Earth. You have yet another problem in this regard, the Earth is actually not a sphere, but an oblate spheroid. Go try to dig that out of your fucking book. What's the matter? Allah didn't know this? Needed to dumb it down for the readers of the Quran? Or was he just in the business of being 'close enough'? Oh yeah, Muslims didn't make that discovery either.

This is the problem with you fundamentalist types (Muslim, Jew, or Christian); you just accept at face value the lies told to you and are happy to kick them down the road. We know better, which only makes you look like a lunatic. Keep your head in the sand to maintain your delusions if you wish, it's your choice. Just know that you're full of shit.

[jesus_wept]

And to make it worse for the OP, the same verse talks about the the sun running its course for a specified time (in the sky during the daytime, that is). Not at all scientific.

??
http://www.universetoday.com/60174/does-the-sun-move/

Dude the sun has a course, along with the whole solar system, orbiting the center of the milky way.

Check this verse which told people about it 1400 years ago before NASA :

( 37 ) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are [left] in darkness.
( 38 ) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
( 39 ) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
( 40 ) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming. Page 442.

http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=eisa...rans=en_sh

About the sun's orbit and how the quran spoke of it accurately ; that's another topic : )

I think a better question to ask, since you're trying to make out this verse is in keeping with science and is accurate, is where and what is the sun's stopping point?

Or perhaps we could just let Muhammed tell us instead?

Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet (ﷺ) asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All- Knowing." (36.38)

http://sunnah.com/bukhari/59

It's no wonder you didn't want to open this can of worms and would like to save this topic for another time...