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RE: If there is a creator, so what?
November 17, 2016 at 2:37 am
Just gonna bump this up as there has been a very low turnout of theists willing to explain exactly why they spend so much time trying to convince us of this stuff.
Anyone else? I can only otherwise conclude that this is something people haven't thought about very much.
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RE: If there is a creator, so what?
November 17, 2016 at 2:47 am
The wrong place to ask if you want such answers surely. The only theists you'll find here are loonies, arseholes or Catholic_Lady.
I am John Cena's hip-hop album.
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RE: If there is a creator, so what?
November 17, 2016 at 2:50 am
(This post was last modified: November 17, 2016 at 2:51 am by robvalue.)
Well sure. I'm happy to hear what the loonies and the arse holes have to say too. If they can't muster up any reason at all, then that just shows they're wasting our time I guess.
I suspect there aren't any answers to this, anywhere. I've never heard any. Has anyone?
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RE: If there is a creator, so what?
November 17, 2016 at 2:56 am
(This post was last modified: November 17, 2016 at 2:58 am by ApeNotKillApe.)
I could step in and provide some flimsy sophistry if you'd like. 
I am John Cena's hip-hop album.
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RE: If there is a creator, so what?
November 17, 2016 at 4:28 am
(November 17, 2016 at 2:37 am)robvalue Wrote: Just gonna bump this up as there has been a very low turnout of theists willing to explain exactly why they spend so much time trying to convince us of this stuff.
Anyone else? I can only otherwise conclude that this is something people haven't thought about very much.
This is an excellent thread topic, robvalue. I've often considered this question myself. If it turns out that we were the design of some other life-form, then why must we conclude that this life-form is a deity? Perhaps what we perceive to be reality is simply the result of some life-form's high school science project?
Furthermore, if we are the product (in some way) of the free thought and curiosity of this life-form, then wouldn't it make sense for us to develop those same traits by creating our own meaning and being leaders of this reality in our own way; rather than relying on this creator to constantly lead us?
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RE: If there is a creator, so what?
November 17, 2016 at 4:31 am
I think that you'll find that the average god-botherer is uncomfortable with human autonomy on a great many levels.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If there is a creator, so what?
November 17, 2016 at 4:36 am
(November 17, 2016 at 4:28 am)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote: (November 17, 2016 at 2:37 am)robvalue Wrote: Just gonna bump this up as there has been a very low turnout of theists willing to explain exactly why they spend so much time trying to convince us of this stuff.
Anyone else? I can only otherwise conclude that this is something people haven't thought about very much.
This is an excellent thread topic, robvalue. I've often considered this question myself. If it turns out that we were the design of some other life-form, then why must we conclude that this life-form is a deity? Perhaps what we perceive to be reality is simply the result of some life-form's high school science project?
Furthermore, if we are the product (in some way) of the free thought and curiosity of this life-form, then wouldn't it make sense for us to develop those same traits by creating our own meaning and being leaders of this reality in our own way; rather than relying on this creator to constantly lead us?
Thank you 
I have no idea what a "deity" is anyway. I've often asked what separates a deity from an arbitrarily powerful non-deity, and I've never received a satisfactory answer.
I guess deity means an imaginary character that's more powerful than anything we actually encounter; found inside the head of theists.
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RE: If there is a creator, so what?
November 17, 2016 at 4:43 am
(This post was last modified: November 17, 2016 at 4:45 am by The Grand Nudger.)
A deity is a personification of a primal force or urge. Stories about them are treatises on the human psyche. Psyche, amusingly, a deified mortal used as the description of a concept in a metaphor driven mythology.
Gee, I wonder who else that might describe, lol. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If there is a creator, so what?
November 17, 2016 at 5:11 am
(November 15, 2016 at 6:40 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Okay so if god exists how do we get to step 1?
Well that's a different question right?
The thread's title is conditional, and so I understood it as a given. "Supposing there is a creator..." I answered the thread's question, therefore, from my understanding of what "there is a creator" means.
Supposing there is a creator and being-a-creator means what I think it means, the relationship between it and you is something to care about.
Some people thought this relationship is no more meaningful than the human relationship with oxygen. I said this was a workable analogy, and I think so in the following sense:
There is a direct and ever-present relation between you-being-you and oxygen-being-oxygen. It is so basic that our bodies do most of the "caring" about that relation, and we seldom consider that relation to have much meaning for us. A person can live just fine without ever caring about oxygen, its relation with us or what it means to be-oxygen. Even living as-if-oxygen-is-not-real won't change a great deal about your day-to-day action. However, failure to account for oxygen-being-oxygen and its relation with being-you and being-other-things means a failure to account for a full picture of reality, AND can get you burned in certain situations involving the presence of oxygen.
Unlike oxygen, EVERYTHING'S most fundamental and ever-present relation consists of the relation between it-being-it and god-being-god. It is so basic that simply being-anything-at-all means that the relation is maintained, so we seldom consider that relation to have much meaning for us. A person can live just fine without ever caring about god, its relation with us or what it means to be-god. Even living-as-if-god-is-not-real won't change a great deal about your day-to-day action, but (if god is indeed real) living in this way will never lead to a full and whole human life. However, accounting for god-being-god and its relation with being-any-thing means accounting for a full picture of reality, AND can show us what it means to live a full and whole human life.
IF the Christian god as I understand it is real, then its relation to you means that you-being-fully-human will become you-being- divinely-human (i.e. the divine relation with you changes from participation to union, whatever that means).
Are you now asking me how would we otherwise arrive at the knowledge that there is indeed a creator?
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RE: If there is a creator, so what?
November 17, 2016 at 5:14 am
(This post was last modified: November 17, 2016 at 5:46 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Will living as if there's no oxygen somehow mean that we can't lead a full and whole human life? How did we manage, then, before we discovered it's existence, back in 1774?
How would you respond to the counterclaim that living as though god were real, or indeed god being real...your god particularly, would -prevent- or seriously threaten the ability of a person from living a full and whole human life? If a person believes that stringing up the better man redeems them, or if indeed it -does- redeem them....for example, then any metrics of a full and whole human life which include empathy, ethics, and moral accountability are anathema to your claim.
I, personally, cannot live a full and whole human life unless I deny that offer and disavow that god.....regardless of whether or not either exists.
Now, you've given us a pedestrain description of god as being analog to oxygen, but clearly, there's some other reason to care, or some reason that you think we should care. It can't have anything to do with that earlier, pedestrian description. Nor can it have anything to do with "most fundamentals", or most mostest fundamentals, so on and so forth ad infinitum...because you're not even talking about the same things when you shift back and forth from one to the other. Something being fundamental to my being, or my being alive, such as oxygen, doesn't say anything about a full and whole human life anymore than oxygen being fundamental says something about the same. God being fundamental, or most fundamental, simply doesn't change my position above.....you see? You're simply arguing for the neccessity of god, another "god exists" argument, not a reason to care.
Weren't you granted license to skip all the "god exists" stuff, so that it didn't get in the way of answering the "so what?" question?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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