The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Joods]

Threaten us all you like; we're not scared of your imaginary friend.

I am glad you are not afraid of my imaginary friend because I don't have one.

Yes you do. You call him god. 

Lies and mockery won't change the fact that God does exist

No he doesn't.

and has given you empirical data all around you to reveal the truth of His existence.

Wrong. No such data exists.

He even went so far as to give you a bible

You mean that book that was written by man (Not god) from copies of copies of copies of translations of translations of unverifiable manuscripts to which no one has ever seen an original of and then re-worded and copied again and again? 

(you will be held accountable for the 20 years you had His word before you).

That gibberish doesn't even make sense. 

Your behavior of resisting God and thereby suppressing the truth of His existence will not save you. That is why He sends people to tell you the truth, to tell you that He has made a way to pay for your sins. This is mercy but if you refuse to repent, He will keep His word, and you have read about it. There is no need for threats, I know God and He wants you to escape His wrath.   

Come out of your brainwashed coma, dear and learn something. First of all, atheists can't resist a god they don't believe in. Second, we aren't asking to be "saved" by the existence of some imaginary entity. Third, "he" doesn't send anyone. Your god is manufactured. People made him. He did not make us. People needed something to believe in and to follow so your false god was created for reasons, most likely one of which they needed some sort of comfort. 

Finally - stop fucking preaching here. If you want to preach, go outside and be a bible thumper to the passersby on the street. Not here where it is most certainly NOT wanted.  Debating and discussing ideas is fine and welcome but when people start getting all preachy on an atheist forum, they are wasting their time. 

That said, don't you think your time would be better served if you were doing something productive like helping out in a homeless shelter, giving to the poor or helping some disadvantaged family instead of being on an atheist forum trying to get us to believe in your bullshit god? 

This is what irks me so much about religious nuts. They think they can come in here and convert us and they do it with such a passion. Sadly, that passion is wasted here, when it could be better served IRL, in their own community. But no. Why do something real when you can just sit on your ass and pretend you're making a difference by arguing that your stupid god is real. 

If you don't like that we don't care for your god, why don't you just pray for us to stop?  Let's see how far that goes.  

Get back to me if it works. Mmmkay?

[FebruaryOfReason]

... Come out of your brainwashed coma, dear and learn something. ...

Nymphadora, there is no point arguing with someone who thinks a woman can be manufactured from a rib, or that a 500 year old man can build a boat big enough to carry 2 of every animal in the world.
Rekeisha is simply beyond reason.

[Angrboda]

I jumped from organization to order because their meanings are very similar. "To systemize or coordinate together" (these are my words)

My reasons behind a need for the exists of God is because of the need for a reason why materials behave as they do. What gives matter its properties? Why is there gravity? Materials just existing and moving in an orderly fashion does not solve the reason why things behave as they do. Materials don't have wills they just have properties. 
Now a god does have a will and can give a reason for why materials move in the way they should because a god gave them the properties and created the order in which they function.
God, the one and only "god", the one i have been talking about, is an orderly and purposeful "god", therefore: an Orderly and Purposeful creation...

If reality has a way it consistently works then I would say it has a way it should work. If it doesn't have a way it should work then when things don't work what do you call that? 
. . . . . . . .
I feel as though you are taking order for granted. Why is there order? Why is there gravity? Do you believe there was nothing and then something and if so why? Where did matter come from and why does it behave in the way it does? You say order is a natural outcome of the world, why? Why do things this just fall into order? Where is your empirical data for all of this?

"Now a god does have a will and can give a reason for why materials move in the way they should..."

That a god can explain the reason why things behave as they do, doesn't mean that a god does explain the reason why things behave as they do. You're jumping from possibility to necessity without a reason for doing so. Why must there be a reason for 'why' materials move in the way they do? There is no reason why there must be an answer to the why questions. Sometimes why questions are simply mistakes. (Why did this atom of uranium decay at this particular time? There is no answer to that 'why' question. It just did; nothing caused it to decay at that particular time. The why question here is simply a mistake.)

[Redbeard The Pink]

I jumped from organization to order because their meanings are very similar. "To systemize or coordinate together" (these are my words)

They're not the same thing, though, and you certainly shouldn't be trying to use them interchangeably in this context. Just because something appears to behave in an orderly fashion, doesn't mean it was necessarily organized by anyone.

My reasons behind a need for the exists of God is because of the need for a reason why materials behave as they do. What gives matter its properties? Why is there gravity?

Those are excellent questions, and questions like that are why we have science. Your bible does not begin to answer them, and many of its stories run directly contrary to documented facts from virtually every branch of science.


Furthermore, just because you perceive the need for a god, doesn't mean there is one. There are plenty of explanations that are more valid, more likely, and more easily testable, and according to Occam's Razor you have to rule those out before jumping to the conclusion that Gaud did it. There is no logical or demonstrable reason that a consistent reality demands a designer.

Materials just existing and moving in an orderly fashion does not solve the reason why things behave as they do.

Actually, it kind of does.

Materials don't have wills they just have properties.

For once, you've managed to say something that's scientifically accurate  

Now a god does have a will and can give a reason for why materials move in the way they should because a god gave them the properties and created the order in which they function.

Aaand there you go again.


The problem with that is that it's a preposterous assertion with zero evidence to support it and a mountain of evidence against it. Virtually everything we've discovered about the Universe suggests that it behaves the way it does automatically and without the need for governance or interference from anyone, let alone a Bronze/Iron Age myth.

God, the one and only "god", the one i have been talking about, is an orderly and purposeful "god", therefore: an Orderly and Purposeful creation...

If reality has a way it consistently works then I would say it has a way it should work.

And I would say you have no reasonable basis for making that assertion, aside from your misunderstanding of the English language and how it works.

If it doesn't have a way it should work then when things don't work what do you call that?

The Universe and its processes have yet to stop working, but if they ever do come to a complete stop and dissipate I'm pretty sure that's called "the heat death of the Universe." Guess where I learned that. Go on, guess.

If your would view poses that reality must be consistent then subjective morals are an anomaly, because they are not consistent.

Are you twisting my words on purpose to be sneaky, or do you really not understand the things I'm saying? I literally can't tell.


I never said "reality must be consistent," or if I did I didn't mean it in the sense that you understood it. I really don't think that's what I said, though, and it's not close enough to what I did say to be considered an accurate representation of my statement. I said "the Universe behaves consistently." What that means is that even if matter and energy change over time (as we observe that they do), the mechanics by which they do that are always consistent.

You claim in your world view that morals are subjective, meaning that they change based on a societies will and the time where upon that society exists. So there isn't an consistent way one should love or administer justice, from one society to another, and throughout time. That is not consistent and it lacks integrity.

And regardless of how human morals evolve over time, human brain chemistry continues to abide by the same laws of physics that the Universe has apparently always followed, and that is the consistency I'm describing. Consistency of the basic mechanics of the Universe.


Complete and utter consistency of all reality would just be some form of stasis; again, I'm having a hard time deciding whether you're deliberately misrepresenting me or just misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I feel as though you are taking order for granted.

I feel as though you are taking the Superantural for granted.

Why is there order?

Because matter and energy behave in such a way that they form orderly systems over time, and they've had enough time.

Why is there gravity?

Man...when your'e trying to act like science doesn't have all the answers, you should really try to pick questions that science doesn't have the answers to.


Gravity exists because objects warp space-time as they occupy it, literally bending space-time in a field around themselves. This bend creates a kind of space-time "hill" that cause things to slide toward each other through space (it's a weird concept and a little difficult to describe).


Incidentally, scientists recently detected gravitational waves for the first time, and the information they gathered seems to support this idea, which I think was mostly conjecture and math until now.


In other gravity-related news, did you that Gravity is actually "just" a scientific theory, and that we have more evidence to support the Theory of Evolution than we do to support the Theory of Gravity? Did you know that? Are you gonna stop believing in gravity now? I mean, the Bible does say that Jesus and a few other people just straight up floated into the sky, so if anybody's Universe doesn't consistently obey the laws of Physics, it's yours. Maybe Gravity doesn't exist.

Do you believe there was nothing and then something and if so why?

I don't necessarily believe that. It's possible, I suppose, but it's also possible that there was just always something, and it took a really long time for it to change into what it is today. I don't have a definite belief on this subject because there's not enough evidence to form one (please don't try to tell me that the bible is evidence).

Where did matter come from and why does it behave in the way it does?

It came from a giant wheel of cheese, and it behaves the way it does because magical, cosmic spoons constantly stir it. Prove me wrong.

You say order is a natural outcome of the world, why?

You say eternal punishment is a natural outcome of finite crimes. Why?

Why do things this just fall into order? Where is your empirical data for all of this?

Because the Universe behaves consistently, creating orderly systems over time. Getting a little sick of repeating myself.


I asked first. Show me the empirical data for your god and I'll show you the empirical data for my science. Don't worry. I'll wait.

I am glad you are not afraid of my imaginary friend because I don't have one. 

I'm pretty sure there's a word for people who believe their imaginary friends are real.

Lies and mockery won't change the fact that God does exist and has given you empirical data all around you to reveal the truth of His existence.

Ah, the old "Everything is proof" card. I counter with the assertion that everything is actually evidence of natural processes that have been ongoing for billions of years, and they were started by no one and are maintained by no one. Occam's Razor again demands that we approach and prove or disprove my assertion first.


Ready, set, go.

He even went so far as to give you a bible (you will be held accountable for the 20 years you had His word before you).

Aw...and after I specifically asked you not to...


I'm sure I've said this somewhere in this thread already, but I have to say it a lot around here, so why not?


The bible is not evidence of itself. You cannot use the bible as evidence of your claim because the bible is your claim. Claims are not evidence of themselves.

Your behavior of resisting God and thereby suppressing the truth of His existence will not save you.

From what, the delicious Hell you're picturing for me right now? Also, there you go again threatening me on behalf of your imaginary fear-monger.

That is why He sends people to tell you the truth, to tell you that He has made a way to pay for your sins. This is mercy but if you refuse to repent, He will keep His word, and you have read about it. There is no need for threats, I know God and He wants you to escape His wrath. 

Ooh yeah...tell me about that wrath, girl. You're seeing it now, aren't you? Is it juicy? Am I on fire? Are there demons torturing and raping me forever? Is my atheist wife there with me? What about our gay cats that play bootyhole in the floor? Is my whole household being flayed repeatedly for the appeasement of the god of all good and love? Come on, give me the nasty. How is your perfectly benevolent god gonna torture old Redbeard in a realm of endless suffering? Don't hold back. I wanna know what your fantasies are about how awful my eternal punishment is gonna be.

[Joods]

... Come out of your brainwashed coma, dear and learn something. ...

Nymphadora, there is no point arguing with someone who thinks a woman can be manufactured from a rib, or that a 500 year old man can build a boat big enough to carry 2 of every animal in the world.
Rekeisha is simply beyond reason.

The point behind my post isn't to argue with the delusional but rather to call them out on their ignorance and voice my opinion. Whether or not they listen is obviously beyond my control, but at least I have spoken up in response to their offensiveness instead of remaining silent.

Besides, no one really knows if my post will sink in or not. Whether it's helpful to rekeisha or not, if it reaches so much as one person, then I'd call that a success.

[Rekeisha]

I will respectfully dare to say that you are an enemy of God. I didn't say anything about you being angry at God. People war against a lot of things but they are not necessarily angry about it. People wage war against other people just to grab what the other has. You defame God and you seek to steal His glory in order to magnify man. Your rejection of Him is an act of war.
 
You are right, a good father doesn't kill his children or torture them for disobedience. God does not torture His children. That is not what I was saying and if I may have lead you to that conclusion I apologize. God's wrath comes against those who suppress the truth about who He is with there ungodliness and wickedness. He does discipline His children so that we might grow more into His likeness, but every human isn't God's child. Some are the children of the devil and speak like he does.
 
From  your conclusion I don't think you understand Genesis at all. You may be familiar with the story but your conclusion is erroneous. You insert your own assumptions and ideas about God that would favor you view of Him. Again you have created a false god who temps his people, in reality God created mankind to be sinless. He, being the originator of relationships, knew how one should be formed. He doesn't want robots but people who truly want Him, not his stuff.  
 
Your link between El the storm god and the true and actual God is thin. Just because people use the name El that doesn't mean they worship the same God. In Egypt people use the name Allah to speak of God. In Japan they use the name Kami Sama 神様 to speak of God. El the storm god of Canaan shares few attributes with God. Also the Bible does say that the Israelites went after and worshipped false gods in many parts of the bible. I believe I spoke of that a few days ago. If you are confident in your story enough to stake your soul on it then provide documentation of idea of God coming from this storm god. Also provide documentation that shows alterations of the text biblical text. Please, not your own words, but straightforward references, that I will can look into.

[Joods]

Exactly who is your post directed at Rekeisha?

[Rekeisha]

The copies of a copies is a myth. I have spoken about the transmission of the gospels on this tread. The New testament is made up of the four gospels as well as letters (epistles) so when a church received the book/letter they would read it and then copy it for themselves, and pass on the original to another church who would then do the same. So there were a number of copies made from the same original text. So there are a number of branches, so to speak, of a copied text. We have some of these copies and can trace any changes in the text. Also, the entire new testament can be reproduce from the early church writers.  Most New testament scriptures can be traced within 100 years of the original manuscript (which is amazing). There are over 4,000 partial and whole manuscripts. With the multiple branches we can see that no single entity/person controlled the text. The bible today is translated from these very text.  As far as I know, there is no other body of work that can provide this amount of evidence toward its "unadulterated" nature or its source (author) credibility.
 
The Holy Spirit, which indwells every believer, carried the writers of the new testament along helping them to express to the early church what they needed for everything in Godliness. It pleases God to use His church to fulfill His plans.
 
You said that people needed something to follow, why? (not say that we don't I just want to know why you think we need to.) Where is your proof that God is manufactured?
 
I will not stop preaching. People are dying in their sin. You can bet against your soul, but you will lose if you continue to resist God. Your lack of belief in God does not stop his judgment nor does it justify your actions.  
 
You assume that I think I can convert you. If I could have converted you I would have. That is not my job. The only thing I have the power to do is witness. The converting part is up to the Holy Spirit. You get to receive the mercies of God by hearing about the Gospel. Nothing can save you but repentance and belief (trust) that God sent his Son to die on the cross for a sinner.
 
I am praying for you guys always, but again it is God's will at work here not mine alone. The great thing for you is that He cares for you and is willing to listen to His people, who are willing to plead for your souls. I don't know if He will grant you repentance because I am not God.

[Rekeisha]

Exactly who is your post directed at Rekeisha?

rocketsurgon

[Rekeisha]

I jumped from organization to order because their meanings are very similar. "To systemize or coordinate together" (these are my words)

My reasons behind a need for the exists of God is because of the need for a reason why materials behave as they do. What gives matter its properties? Why is there gravity? Materials just existing and moving in an orderly fashion does not solve the reason why things behave as they do. Materials don't have wills they just have properties. 
Now a god does have a will and can give a reason for why materials move in the way they should because a god gave them the properties and created the order in which they function.
God, the one and only "god", the one i have been talking about, is an orderly and purposeful "god", therefore: an Orderly and Purposeful creation...

If reality has a way it consistently works then I would say it has a way it should work. If it doesn't have a way it should work then when things don't work what do you call that? 
. . . . . . . .
I feel as though you are taking order for granted. Why is there order? Why is there gravity? Do you believe there was nothing and then something and if so why? Where did matter come from and why does it behave in the way it does? You say order is a natural outcome of the world, why? Why do things this just fall into order? Where is your empirical data for all of this?

"Now a god does have a will and can give a reason for why materials move in the way they should..."

That a god can explain the reason why things behave as they do, doesn't mean that a god does explain the reason why things behave as they do.  You're jumping from possibility to necessity without a reason for doing so.  Why must there be a reason for 'why' materials move in the way they do?  There is no reason why there must be an answer to the why questions.  Sometimes why questions are simply mistakes.  (Why did this atom of uranium decay at this particular time?  There is no answer to that 'why' question.  It just did; nothing caused it to decay at that particular time.  The why question here is simply a mistake.)

God just is a necessity... would you accept my answer if I gave that to you? If you don't think the why is important then neither is science. The why helps you understand the world around you. Don't hide from the why. If your view point is the superior one then you shouldn't have to give up on the why. My view point is consistent and coherent. You say I just form a possibility into a necessity but then you fail to say why it isn't a necessity. You have no answer that can combat the fact that God gives an answer to the why.