The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Rekeisha]

I jumped from organization to order because their meanings are very similar. "To systemize or coordinate together" (these are my words)

They're not the same thing, though, and you certainly shouldn't be trying to use them interchangeably in this context. Just because something appears to behave in an orderly fashion, doesn't mean it was necessarily organized by anyone.

My reasons behind a need for the exists of God is because of the need for a reason why materials behave as they do. What gives matter its properties? Why is there gravity?

Those are excellent questions, and questions like that are why we have science. Your bible does not begin to answer them, and many of its stories run directly contrary to documented facts from virtually every branch of science.


Furthermore, just because you perceive the need for a god, doesn't mean there is one. There are plenty of explanations that are more valid, more likely, and more easily testable, and according to Occam's Razor you have to rule those out before jumping to the conclusion that Gaud did it. There is no logical or demonstrable reason that a consistent reality demands a designer.

Materials just existing and moving in an orderly fashion does not solve the reason why things behave as they do.

Actually, it kind of does.

Materials don't have wills they just have properties.

For once, you've managed to say something that's scientifically accurate  

Now a god does have a will and can give a reason for why materials move in the way they should because a god gave them the properties and created the order in which they function.

Aaand there you go again.


The problem with that is that it's a preposterous assertion with zero evidence to support it and a mountain of evidence against it. Virtually everything we've discovered about the Universe suggests that it behaves the way it does automatically and without the need for governance or interference from anyone, let alone a Bronze/Iron Age myth.

God, the one and only "god", the one i have been talking about, is an orderly and purposeful "god", therefore: an Orderly and Purposeful creation...

If reality has a way it consistently works then I would say it has a way it should work.

And I would say you have no reasonable basis for making that assertion, aside from your misunderstanding of the English language and how it works.

If it doesn't have a way it should work then when things don't work what do you call that?

The Universe and its processes have yet to stop working, but if they ever do come to a complete stop and dissipate I'm pretty sure that's called "the heat death of the Universe." Guess where I learned that. Go on, guess.

If your would view poses that reality must be consistent then subjective morals are an anomaly, because they are not consistent.

Are you twisting my words on purpose to be sneaky, or do you really not understand the things I'm saying? I literally can't tell.


I never said "reality must be consistent," or if I did I didn't mean it in the sense that you understood it. I really don't think that's what I said, though, and it's not close enough to what I did say to be considered an accurate representation of my statement. I said "the Universe behaves consistently." What that means is that even if matter and energy change over time (as we observe that they do), the mechanics by which they do that are always consistent.

You claim in your world view that morals are subjective, meaning that they change based on a societies will and the time where upon that society exists. So there isn't an consistent way one should love or administer justice, from one society to another, and throughout time. That is not consistent and it lacks integrity.

And regardless of how human morals evolve over time, human brain chemistry continues to abide by the same laws of physics that the Universe has apparently always followed, and that is the consistency I'm describing. Consistency of the basic mechanics of the Universe.


Complete and utter consistency of all reality would just be some form of stasis; again, I'm having a hard time deciding whether you're deliberately misrepresenting me or just misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I feel as though you are taking order for granted.

I feel as though you are taking the Superantural for granted.

Why is there order?

Because matter and energy behave in such a way that they form orderly systems over time, and they've had enough time.

Why is there gravity?

Man...when your'e trying to act like science doesn't have all the answers, you should really try to pick questions that science doesn't have the answers to.


Gravity exists because objects warp space-time as they occupy it, literally bending space-time in a field around themselves. This bend creates a kind of space-time "hill" that cause things to slide toward each other through space (it's a weird concept and a little difficult to describe).


Incidentally, scientists recently detected gravitational waves for the first time, and the information they gathered seems to support this idea, which I think was mostly conjecture and math until now.


In other gravity-related news, did you that Gravity is actually "just" a scientific theory, and that we have more evidence to support the Theory of Evolution than we do to support the Theory of Gravity? Did you know that? Are you gonna stop believing in gravity now? I mean, the Bible does say that Jesus and a few other people just straight up floated into the sky, so if anybody's Universe doesn't consistently obey the laws of Physics, it's yours. Maybe Gravity doesn't exist.

Do you believe there was nothing and then something and if so why?

I don't necessarily believe that. It's possible, I suppose, but it's also possible that there was just always something, and it took a really long time for it to change into what it is today. I don't have a definite belief on this subject because there's not enough evidence to form one (please don't try to tell me that the bible is evidence).

Where did matter come from and why does it behave in the way it does?

It came from a giant wheel of cheese, and it behaves the way it does because magical, cosmic spoons constantly stir it. Prove me wrong.

You say order is a natural outcome of the world, why?

You say eternal punishment is a natural outcome of finite crimes. Why?

Why do things this just fall into order? Where is your empirical data for all of this?

Because the Universe behaves consistently, creating orderly systems over time. Getting a little sick of repeating myself.


I asked first. Show me the empirical data for your god and I'll show you the empirical data for my science. Don't worry. I'll wait.

I am glad you are not afraid of my imaginary friend because I don't have one. 

I'm pretty sure there's a word for people who believe their imaginary friends are real.

Lies and mockery won't change the fact that God does exist and has given you empirical data all around you to reveal the truth of His existence.

Ah, the old "Everything is proof" card. I counter with the assertion that everything is actually evidence of natural processes that have been ongoing for billions of years, and they were started by no one and are maintained by no one. Occam's Razor again demands that we approach and prove or disprove my assertion first.


Ready, set, go.

He even went so far as to give you a bible (you will be held accountable for the 20 years you had His word before you).

Aw...and after I specifically asked you not to...


I'm sure I've said this somewhere in this thread already, but I have to say it a lot around here, so why not?


The bible is not evidence of itself. You cannot use the bible as evidence of your claim because the bible is your claim. Claims are not evidence of themselves.

Your behavior of resisting God and thereby suppressing the truth of His existence will not save you.

From what, the delicious Hell you're picturing for me right now? Also, there you go again threatening me on behalf of your imaginary fear-monger.

That is why He sends people to tell you the truth, to tell you that He has made a way to pay for your sins. This is mercy but if you refuse to repent, He will keep His word, and you have read about it. There is no need for threats, I know God and He wants you to escape His wrath. 

Ooh yeah...tell me about that wrath, girl. You're seeing it now, aren't you? Is it juicy? Am I on fire? Are there demons torturing and raping me forever? Is my atheist wife there with me? What about our gay cats that play bootyhole in the floor? Is my whole household being flayed repeatedly for the appeasement of the god of all good and love? Come on, give me the nasty. How is your perfectly benevolent god gonna torture old Redbeard in a realm of endless suffering? Don't hold back. I wanna know what your fantasies are about how awful my eternal punishment is gonna be.

You keep talking about all this proof against God yet you haven't produced any. You say science will prove the fact that life will come from non-life but it hasn't.  You claim I believe in a myth but when it comes down to taking your world view to its ends if fails and you just keep saying "just cause". You assume things just fall into order without a reason why and say science will prove that some day. So it seem that you are banking your life on blind faith.

You spoke of Occam's Razor but to me that the simpler answer would be that God created everything and set everything in motion. As apposed to a lot of time with material that always existed that some how came together perfectly to create the universe we know. Also why is it easier to believe that materials existed forever as apposed to a being?

So what I understand you saying is that the "universe behaves consistently" meaning matter interacts with matter in a observable and measurable way consistently. What I also see you saying, which seems a bit contradictory to me, is that "reality" does not have to behave consistently. So would you please provide me with a clear definition of reality.

[Joods]

Rekeisha,

Since you seem so hard up to be ignorant (as in not knowing better), allow me to point you here. 

Simply put, it is a post by a now retired staff member on things not to say to an atheist. There's a handy list about that. Also included is what an atheist is not. Again, another handy list.

You seem to be ever forgetful of where you are when you come to this forum.

[The Grand Nudger]

You keep talking about all this proof against God yet you haven't produced any. You say science will prove the fact that life will come from non-life but it hasn't.

A complete non-issue...science and god botherers -alike- propose that life comes from non-life.

You claim I believe in a myth but when it comes down to taking your world view to its ends if fails and you just keep saying "just cause". You assume things just fall into order without a reason why and say science will prove that some day. So it seem that you are banking your life on blind faith.

A toothless criticism unless -you- think that there's something wrong with blind faith........

 Also why is it easier to believe that materials existed forever as apposed to a being?

Belief is not required, and is non-applicable, therefore the ease of -any- belief is a non-starter.  If some "x" has always existed...a demand made by the godly, then the candidates for that must, by definition, be things that exist.  Get to work, demonstrate that god exists, make it meet the basic criteria of your -own- demands.

[Redbeard The Pink]

You keep talking about all this proof against God yet you haven't produced any.

We've been over it pretty thoroughly, actually. I might have even put links in occasionally, though I'm notoriously bad about not doing that. The book your god is based on is scientifically inaccurate and logically inconsistent, your god as a character is logically and ideologically inconsistent with itself and with reality, and the various sects of your religion are inconsistent with each other. Every scrap of evidence points to your god being an imaginary thing that people fight over and use to control each other.

You say science will prove the fact that life will come from non-life but it hasn't.

Actually, yes it has. We know there was a time before life on Earth, and we know that life now exists on Earth, which means somewhere along the line inorganic substances must have somehow coalesced into living things. What we don't fully understand yet is how, but within the next 100 or so years (maybe sooner) we probably will.


Furthermore, your own beliefs are that your god spoke life into being from non-life, so I don't see why that's even an issue.

 You claim I believe in a myth but when it comes down to taking your world view to its ends if fails and you just keep saying "just cause".

My recognition of the fact that there is no discernible reason or design behind reality is not a failing of my world view. Your insistence that there must always be a cogent answer to your incessant "why" is a failing of yours.

You assume things just fall into order without a reason why and say science will prove that some day.

And again, like a blithering moron, you fail to properly represent what I said. I explained, as simply as I could, why "order" as we know it exists, and it wasn't because "no reason."

So it seem that you are banking your life on blind faith.

No, that would be what you're doing.

You spoke of Occam's Razor but to me that the simpler answer would be that God created everything and set everything in motion.

That would be because your mind is simple, and because you don't understand the kind of simplicity Occam's Razor is talking about. Your hypothesis is virtually untestable, making it one of the first things to fall to the Razor in favor of other explanations that would be easier to prove or disprove.

As apposed to a lot of time with material that always existed that some how came together perfectly to create the universe we know.

Perfect in what sense? The vast majority of it is completely uninhabitable.

Also why is it easier to believe that materials existed forever as apposed to a being?

Because there is evidence to suggest that matter/energy can neither be created nor destroyed, yet there is no evidence to suggest that supernatural realms or beings exist at all.

So what I understand you saying is that the "universe behaves consistently" meaning matter interacts with matter in a observable and measurable way consistently. What I also see you saying, which seems a bit contradictory to me, is that "reality" does not have to behave consistently. So would you please provide me with a clear definition of reality.

"Reality behaves consistently" and "reality must be consistent" are not the same thing. "Reality behaves consistently" is a whole lot closer to what I actually said.


Look, I'm not gonna sit here and dick around with you about semantics. Yes, the physics pretty much always works the same way, and yes, humans behave differently over time. That's two different kinds of consistency, and you're conflating them because you're trying to be sneaky and/or you're just an idiot.

[drfuzzy]

---

The copies of a copies is a myth. I have spoken about the transmission of the gospels on this tread. The New testament is made up of the four gospels as well as letters (epistles) so when a church received the book/letter they would read it and then copy it for themselves, and pass on the original to another church who would then do the same. So there were a number of copies made from the same original text. So there are a number of branches, so to speak, of a copied text. We have some of these copies and can trace any changes in the text. Also, the entire new testament can be reproduce from the early church writers.  Most New testament scriptures can be traced within 100 years of the original manuscript (which is amazing). There are over 4,000 partial and whole manuscripts. With the multiple branches we can see that no single entity/person controlled the text. The bible today is translated from these very text.  As far as I know, there is no other body of work that can provide this amount of evidence toward its "unadulterated" nature or its source (author) credibility.
 
The Holy Spirit, which indwells every believer, carried the writers of the new testament along helping them to express to the early church what they needed for everything in Godliness. It pleases God to use His church to fulfill His plans.
 
You said that people needed something to follow, why? (not say that we don't I just want to know why you think we need to.) Where is your proof that God is manufactured?
 
I will not stop preaching. People are dying in their sin. You can bet against your soul, but you will lose if you continue to resist God. Your lack of belief in God does not stop his judgment nor does it justify your actions.  
 
You assume that I think I can convert you. If I could have converted you I would have. That is not my job. The only thing I have the power to do is witness. The converting part is up to the Holy Spirit. You get to receive the mercies of God by hearing about the Gospel. Nothing can save you but repentance and belief (trust) that God sent his Son to die on the cross for a sinner.

---

 

I am praying for you guys always

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, but again it is God's will at work here not mine alone. The great thing for you is that He cares for you and is willing to listen to His people, who are willing to plead for your souls. I don't know if He will grant you repentance because I am not God.

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You can waste your life on your knees talking to the ceiling if you feel like it, but I would prefer not to be included in your delusions.

[abaris]

Still debating little Rakeisha, I see.

Know the legend of Sysiphos?

[drfuzzy]

Still debating little Rakeisha, I see.

Know the legend of Sysiphos?

Yes . . . I love reading Redbeard's responses though.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

I'm just baffled that she claims I have the Genesis story wrong, since I typed it and (just to be sure) went to look at a Christian website that gave a concise summary of the story. My version was so close that I could have been marked for plagiarism! And yet I'm still told that I have it wrong.

Why is trying to talk about the problems of the Bible like playing "denominational whack-a-mole"? You hit Fundamentalist Interpretation Type A7's version right on the head, and...nope! Turned out it was Fundamenalist Interpretation Type C3. Sorry, atheist, you don't know what you're talking about!



Edit to Add: I do feel a little better, though. I needed that accusation of being an agent of Satan to complete my "Stupid Things Fundies Say" Bingo card.

BINGO!

[vorlon13]

I'm just baffled that she claims I have the Genesis story wrong, since I typed it and (just to be sure) went to look at a Christian website that gave a concise summary of the story. My version was so close that I could have been marked for plagiarism! And yet I'm still told that I have it wrong.

Why is trying to talk about the problems of the Bible like playing "denominational whack-a-mole"? You hit Fundamentalist Interpretation Type A7's version right on the head, and...nope! Turned out it was Fundamenalist Interpretation Type C3. Sorry, atheist, you don't know what you're talking about!



Edit to Add: I do feel a little better, though. I needed that accusation of being an agent of Satan to complete my "Stupid Things Fundies Say" Bingo card.

BINGO!

That might be a bad habit the (mainline) Christers picked up from the Mormon heretics.

[LadyForCamus]

Still debating little Rakeisha, I see.

Know the legend of Sysiphos?

LOL, in the face of absurdity redbeard must carry on! But damn, that rock gets heavy after a while...[emoji41]