The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Whateverist]

Am I wrong?

Yes, you're wrong.

Unassailable logic. You should listen to this man, Rekeisha.

[Rekeisha]

So why do believe in this? The day before yesterday you said that they are about 100 years out to making abiogenesis work but that means that they have not. Yesterday you say that it isn't happening now so it would seem to me that there is no scientific evidence that abiogenesis actually happens. Am I wrong?

Abiogenesis isn't really a theory, it is merely a name for an unknown natural process.  It is simply the assumption that the process when discovered will turn out to have been natural.  

Don't forget that your divinity theory is also an unknown process.  You don't know whether your god used a deeper understanding of the natural world to create life or whether it was pure magic.  Neither of us has any advantage here.  The exact means by which the inorganic became organic is not known .. not by us, not by you.

So we see Micro evolution but what about Macro evolution. Where are we see this happen? Where do we see genetic information being added to organisms?
evolution

Abiogenesis is not what is meant by macro evolution.  Macro evolution is merely a term used to indicate substantial change which the theory of evolution would describe as taking place over a long series of micro mutations.

God may be a theory to you but He isn't to me He is a being. Someone that I have know for many years now. His actions on the cross, His death and resections, give me new life. This is a reality to me because I have experienced the forgiveness of my sins.

It is logical to me that life comes from life and doesn't just spring from nonliving things.

[Rekeisha]

Why do you ask?

Various documentaries have shown a basic set of morals in the ape family.  Does this mean your god gave morals to the apes?

So why do believe in this? The day before yesterday you said that they are about 100 years out to making abiogenesis work but that means that they have not. Yesterday you say that it isn't happening now so it would seem to me that there is no scientific evidence that abiogenesis actually happens. Am I wrong?

So we see Micro evolution but what about Macro evolution. Where are we see this happen? Where do we see genetic information being added to organisms?
evolution

Yes, you're wrong. Having incomplete information and incomplete evidence is not the same as having no information and no evidence. We don't fully understand the process, but we're pretty sure we do understand various stages, chemicals, and processes that would be necessary for it to happen. We just don't have all the pieces yet.

Micro evolution IS macro evolution. They are the EXACT same thing. Macro evolution just takes longer because it's the accumulation of many, many instances of micro evolution.

In my brief study of abiogenesis it seems that this study is wide and varied and even the things that people have been able to produce (some proteins) are far from actually being life. Also there is the human will  behind the study of abiogenesis. There are people who which to create life, since they believe that God doesn't exist, and so they are striving to create an environment in which to create life. So if we only see this process happening in the laboratory I see it as reaching to say this is something that is a concrete fact. It should be observable in nature.

Also Micro evolution is observable but macro evolution no one has been able to observe. No one has seen a dinosaur turn into a bird. There is no scientific proof that it happens. There is no historical proof that it happens. It is leaping to conclusions and if you which to believe it you must believe it on faith.

[Cyberman]

Ken Ham doesn’t count as study.

[IATIA]

Also Micro evolution is observable but macro evolution no one has been able to observe. No one has seen a dinosaur turn into a bird.

Firstly, NO ONE was around 65,000,000 years ago to see it happen. DUH!

Secondly, it does take more than a couple of years for the transformation to happen. DUH!

[Redbeard The Pink]

In my brief study of abiogenesis it seems that this study is wide and varied and even the things that people have been able to produce (some proteins) are far from actually being life. Also there is the human will  behind the study of abiogenesis. There are people who which to create life, since they believe that God doesn't exist, and so they are striving to create an environment in which to create life. So if we only see this process happening in the laboratory I see it as reaching to say this is something that is a concrete fact. It should be observable in nature.

I've already sort of explained why it's probably not observable in nature. As far as things happening in lab conditions, the goal with most of those is to gather components that were likely around during Earth's early geologic history. Sometimes they learn something new and have to go back to the drawing board. That's how science works. Considering the most abundant elements found in life are also the most abundant elements found in the Universe (Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, etc.), it's really not that far-fetched to think that organic chemistry will start to happen and gain complexity given enough time to stew (like, say, a few billion years).

Also Micro evolution is observable but macro evolution no one has been able to observe. No one has seen a dinosaur turn into a bird. There is no scientific proof that it happens. There is no historical proof that it happens. It is leaping to conclusions and if you which to believe it you must believe it on faith.

Of course nobody has seen a dinosaur turn into a bird (or give birth to one, which is what I think you mean to say). If one ever did, it would be devastating to the Theory of Evolution as it is currently written because the Theory of Evolution states that the line of ancestry between a dinosaur and a bird would be literally millions of years long, and that we shouldn't be able to observe live dinosaurs in the first place because they should all be dead.


What we have been able to observe is the fossil record, and the fossil record overwhelmingly points to the diversity of life arising from small genetic changes occurring throughout the scope of a few billion years. The fossil record is where we witness dinosaurs slowly turning into birds. The fossil record (along with genetics, and a lot of other things) is the proof that this occurs.


The reason macro evolution isn't observable is time; humans don't live long enough or have a long enough generational memory to have documented the full scope of one species turning into another. Now that we have science and modern documentation, though, that might change in a few thousand years, if we manage to survive; we may very well accumulate enough genetic data to connect the species of the future to the species of today. I wonder what scientific gap your Gaud will hide in then.


The bottom line is that macro and micro evolution are the same thing. The difference is that micro evolution is a few generations long, whereas macro evolution involves enough generations that things further down the line are genetically incompatible with their ancestors and cousins, despite sharing many of the same genetic traits (hence their classification as different species).

[Wyrd of Gawd]

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Various documentaries have shown a basic set of morals in the ape family.  Does this mean your god gave morals to the apes?

Yes, you're wrong. Having incomplete information and incomplete evidence is not the same as having no information and no evidence. We don't fully understand the process, but we're pretty sure we do understand various stages, chemicals, and processes that would be necessary for it to happen. We just don't have all the pieces yet.

Micro evolution IS macro evolution. They are the EXACT same thing. Macro evolution just takes longer because it's the accumulation of many, many instances of micro evolution.

In my brief study of abiogenesis it seems that this study is wide and varied and even the things that people have been able to produce (some proteins) are far from actually being life. Also there is the human will  behind the study of abiogenesis. There are people who which to create life, since they believe that God doesn't exist, and so they are striving to create an environment in which to create life. So if we only see this process happening in the laboratory I see it as reaching to say this is something that is a concrete fact. It should be observable in nature.

---

Also Micro evolution is observable but macro evolution no one has been able to observe. No one has seen a dinosaur turn into a bird. There is no scientific proof that it happens. There is no historical proof that it happens. It is leaping to conclusions and if you which to believe it you must believe it on faith./quote]

Even the Bible says that evolution is real so why don't you believe it if you believe the other stuff like ghosts and zombies, angels and demons?

[Fidel_Castronaut]

God may be a theory to you but He isn't to me He is a being. Someone that I have know for many years now. His actions on the cross, His death and resections, give me new life. This is a reality to me because I have experienced the forgiveness of my sins.

It is logical to me that life comes from life and doesn't just spring from nonliving things.

Good for you.

Doesn't mean anything to anyone else though.

[Whateverist]

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Abiogenesis isn't really a theory, it is merely a name for an unknown natural process.  It is simply the assumption that the process when discovered will turn out to have been natural.  

Don't forget that your divinity theory is also an unknown process.  You don't know whether your god used a deeper understanding of the natural world to create life or whether it was pure magic.  Neither of us has any advantage here.  The exact means by which the inorganic became organic is not known .. not by us, not by you.


Abiogenesis is not what is meant by macro evolution.  Macro evolution is merely a term used to indicate substantial change which the theory of evolution would describe as taking place over a long series of micro mutations.

---

God may be a theory to you but He isn't to me He is a being. Someone that I have know for many years now.

I accept that this is true for you. You learned that god is a being and have interacted with that being as you would a very special 'person' for many years now. Is it that you would like everyone to join you in this experience of yours? Would you like to convince me of your reality?

If so I would first like to consider how and why you came to have this experience. How is it that a person could come to experience what you do while others learn to experience different special beings and still others experience no god at all. So if you want to argue for the primacy of what you believe this is where I would start.

However I don't contest the reasonableness of your beliefs given your life experience. If I had been born to your parents in your community I might have come to believe as you do. Who is to say? But I had my own origins and am as entitled to my beliefs as you are to yours.

His actions on the cross, His death and resections, give me new life. This is a reality to me because I have experienced the forgiveness of my sins.

Yes I am familiar with the rough outline of what the bible teaches and I understand it was central to why you have come to believe as you do. But the relevance of a literal reading of the bible is not an assumption I share with you. I have theories regarding how we come to believe different things and am happy to discuss that with you. But I am not looking to take on new and (to me) unnecessary assumptions from the bible. I have my own theories about what the bible can mean.

It is logical to me that life comes from life and doesn't just spring from nonliving things.

Yes it is consistent with the rest of what you have learned to believe. Carry on.

[Redbeard The Pink]

It is logical to me that life comes from life and doesn't just spring from nonliving things.

Except, of course, when your Gaud is making humans out of dirt and speaking animals and trees into existence out of nowhere.