The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Rekeisha]

I guess you are failing at finding good argumentation against the truth as well.

If you use science but your starting point is wrong your outcome will always be wrong. Also did you think about fact checking the website, or did you just bring your presuppositions to the website and rule it out because it didn't fit your category of what you feel is non-bias?

You act like science is this magical thing and every time you come to a conclusion using Science it must be right. Talk about drinking the kool-aid. "Science says... so it must be right" "it's scientific!" "Science proves _____ so that is how the world works". People are the one behind using the tool of science to figure things out. If people are flawed then their conclusions can be flawed. If people have the presupposition that God doesn't exist it is not a surprise that their conclusions will lead them to that conclusion. To use science you must rely on knowledge, logic, uniformity and you can not account for those things without God. Science can't disprove faith or God or anything God has set up. You can misuse the tool and blindly try to etch out your own understanding of things but you will be wrong.

The truth is God is in control of everything. He see and know everything as well as the real reason why you don't want to follow Him. If you truly used critical thinking you would have to end up at the conclusion that God is real. What is amazing to me is that He cares for you even when you do everything in your power to stick your head in the sand and pretend He isn't there. You treat Him like He is your enemy even though He seek your best. He is the most precious being in all creation. Nothing is worth more than He is and He willingly gives Himself to you. He did this on the cross for your sins and If you accept His sacrifice He will also Give yo the Holy Spirit as a down payment. He want to give you amazing things but I find that you just want to play around in the dirt. You can have so much more but you settle for only what you can do. You stunt your thinking by hiding behind "human knowledge and wisdom".

I hope you have something intelligent to say in response to my post.

Your level of idiocy is honestly getting kind of tiring. 



As I already explained, the point of quoting you and changing your argument was to show you that it's the exact same argument with the exact same level of truth, regardless of which deity you're talking about. The fact that you're still too dumb to realize this, even though I expressly explained it to you, is worrying, to say the least.


Science is not a magical explanation that fills in every gap. That's what your stupid little Gaud is for. Science gathers evidence and posits reasonable explanations for that evidence. Science is trustworthy because it recognizes, accepts, and seeks to gain understanding about what it doesn't know instead of settling on an easy answer that makes a good story for scaring children in the night.


There is no evidence that your Gaud is the source of knowledge or logic. There is no evidence that your Gaud is the source of anything. There is ample evidence to suggest that your Gaud is a fictional character, and the fictional claims regarding him are such that if he did exist, he would be an immoral monster unworthy of worship.


The problem with your whole premise is that I didn't start out with the premise that the Christian Gaud doesn't exist. I started out with the opposite premise. I believed Gaud does exist. Even though I had that presupposition, the evidence against it was such that I could no longer honestly or objectively hold that presupposition and call myself a rational person. I saw the evidence, realized how it added up, and changed my mind. It was exactly like when I stopped believing in Santa Claus, only a little more embarrassing because I'm 28 years old.


You, in all likelihood, are much, much, MUCH older than I am, and yet you still toil under the ignorant delusion of Gaud. You have even less time to enjoy True Reality than I do, and yet you squander it on a religious existence for which there is no reward. Why do you not let us help you? Denounce your Gaud, and accept Reality, so you can be saved from your ignorance and delusion. You've clearly been indoctrinated deeply and forcefully for a long, long time, but I believe in you, and refuse to give up on you. No matter how stubborn and ignorant you are, I won't stop telling you the truth. It's not too late to accept Reality and begin that relationship today.

If you are in possession of the truth then why would you need to insult me? You should be able to bring you evidence and stand by it without fear or the need to be defensive.

So what are the preconditions that allow for knowledge, logic, reason and uniformity?

What makes you think I have not been challenged or allowed myself to challenge my own beliefs? What make you think that the way I live in submission to God is the same as your experience with Christianity? Why do you assume that I put my faith in the same place you put yours? You assume I never had a problem with anything I have read in the Bible. The reason why I still believe is because I know God. Since I know Him I allow Him to explain what I am reading.

Have you challenged your view on wither morals are relative? Have you challenged your views on abortion? Have your challenged your views on evolution? Did you fact check the page that you presented to me about failed prophecies? Have you challenged your view on the creation of the universe? Have the challenged your views on how nonliving matter became living matter? Have you challenged your views on wither people can even be unbiased?

You were not a Christian if
You did not receive the revelation from God that He is God
You never gave your life to Him in order to enjoy Him and glorify Him.
You never knew God or wanted to be like Him and became like Him.
You never had power over you sin nature and you didn't enjoy your sin because of your love for God.
You left the faith and turned your back on God

You make a lot of knowledge claims but what is your evidence that I am much much MUCH older than you? You make bold statements that have no bases in reality I am only 32. No I have not drunk the Kool-aid of our generation.

[Rekeisha]

So Jesus Christ is my cult leader? Where might He be residing on earth? Do you have His residence?
The Branch Davidians had a cult leader and his name was David Koresh and even if they thought he was God he wasn't. Actually I remember watching that on TV and my mind when to this verse. Mt 24:26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he [Jesus] is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he [Jesus] is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.


I believe the word or God. I also know that there are different types of writing in the Bible like poems, history, prophecy, and letters. They should all be looked at in light of that. Also I have looked at How the construction of the Bible came about. What I will not do is try to make God's word conform to what I want to be right. I conform to God not the other way around. I am not smarter than the God of the universe and neither is anyone else on this earth.

Yes Jesus is the head of the church. In fact Jesus has all authority in Heaven and on Earth. You are not out of His jurisdiction and in His mercy He want you to come into right relationship with Him. He shed His blood for your sins and He defeated death so that you may live an eternal life enjoying Him. You can try to throw your erroneous labels on my statements about God but in the end the truth prevails. We will all see what is reality and God will be there because He is in control of everything.

Redbeard has already said what i would have wanted to say, on this. I do worry about you. The fact that you are a Bible Idolator, who think that the Word is something that must be conformed to over testable reality, indicates serious problems in your life, to me.

Why do you think a cult leader has to still be physically alive and somewhere currently on earth? The whole point of the story told by his disciples is that he's not really  dead, but came back to life and went to heaven but will return "soon".

Like David Koresh, Jesus built a cult of followers and predicted that he would be executed by the authorities, and he was. My point isn't that Koresh is special, it's the opposite: the basic concept of the cult is the same, anywhere you look. Except you don't look, because you have been trained not to look by your religious teachers. They teach that it is a good thing to shut your mind down and "just believe". That is a mark of a cult. They teach you that your cult leader was God incarnate, a divine messenger, even though he was physically human. That is a mark of a cult. They teach you that you are so inherently flawed that you own brain cannot possibly figure out The Truth™, but only to accept it. That is the mark of a cult. When others tell you that you are talking like a cultist, you defensively proclaim the strength of your faith instead of examining the lies you have been told-- like about the "prophecy" about Tyre.

Cult. Cult. Cult.

Insults, Cults, and a miss understanding of the Bible, Christianity, and history. Is this your defense?

Where is Jesus' body if He is dead? What happened to it and how do you know this?
If Jesus didn't died then how did he survive crucifixion?
Why do you assume that I don't look? What teachers do you think I have? What is your evidence that I have teachers that tell me not to look?
Was this the Christianity your grew up in?
Do you actually believe what you wrote? (this is not trying to be an insult but an honest question.)

[TheRocketSurgeon]

---

Redbeard has already said what i would have wanted to say, on this. I do worry about you. The fact that you are a Bible Idolator, who think that the Word is something that must be conformed to over testable reality, indicates serious problems in your life, to me.

Why do you think a cult leader has to still be physically alive and somewhere currently on earth? The whole point of the story told by his disciples is that he's not really  dead, but came back to life and went to heaven but will return "soon".

Like David Koresh, Jesus built a cult of followers and predicted that he would be executed by the authorities, and he was. My point isn't that Koresh is special, it's the opposite: the basic concept of the cult is the same, anywhere you look. Except you don't look, because you have been trained not to look by your religious teachers. They teach that it is a good thing to shut your mind down and "just believe". That is a mark of a cult. They teach you that your cult leader was God incarnate, a divine messenger, even though he was physically human. That is a mark of a cult. They teach you that you are so inherently flawed that you own brain cannot possibly figure out The Truth™, but only to accept it. That is the mark of a cult. When others tell you that you are talking like a cultist, you defensively proclaim the strength of your faith instead of examining the lies you have been told-- like about the "prophecy" about Tyre.

Cult. Cult. Cult.

---

Insults, Cults, and a miss understanding of the Bible, Christianity, and history. Is this your defense?

Where is Jesus' body if He is dead? What happened to it and how do you know this?
If Jesus didn't died then how did he survive crucifixion?
Why do you assume that I don't look? What teachers do you think I have? What is your evidence that I have teachers that tell me not to look?
Was this the Christianity your grew up in?
Do you actually believe what you wrote? (this is not trying to be an insult but an honest question.)

No, it's not my "defense". It's my offense. Because you're the one coming here with insane propositions about magical beings/events, and spouting cult mantras. And I do understand history and the Bible. I'm just not stating it in a way you're accustomed to hearing, and you don't like my answers.

Likely Jesus was buried in a mass grave like the traitorous criminal that he was, according to the Romans (that's one of two ways they disposed of crucifixion victims, the other being a roadside stake "to set an example", as with the killing of Spartacus and his followers, according to that story). I don't know what happened to the body; that's the point, no one does. The stories that cropped up later aren't evidence of anything but storytelling. 

I don't know where you get "Jesus didn't died" [sic] from what I wrote, because I'm saying that he DID die, and his apostles came up with a bullshit story about it to say he's not really dead, and will be back "soon".

I say you do not look because you have been trained by the culture of your church, subtly and over years, to reject anything that does not fit the presupposed idea. I have explained the ways, above, in which what you are saying matches that of what cultists say. You yourself have made comments about rejecting evidence that doesn't fit the Bible, which makes you what I call a "Bible Idolator", unwilling to even seriously consider  that it's just a book written by people who didn't have the knowledge we have today, and might be completely mistaken. My evidence that you have teachers that tell you not to look and what to say is that you are saying every thing I used to say when I was like you, 22 years ago, and those teachers taught me to ignore "Man's Knowledge" and reject "the World", and to "lean not on my own understanding". You sound just like my entire social circle, back then, including myself.

Yes, I believe every word I wrote. I pride myself on intellectual honesty and integrity. I think a religion is just a cult with more members, and we have just spent so long with religious domination of our culture that it's hard for people to realize that the things they are saying sound insane  from a rational perspective. That's why I tried showing you what it looked like when I plugged "Ahura Mazda" and "Mithras" (Zoroastrian/Persian god and son of god) into the your statement, before. I wanted you to stop and look at it with fresh eyes, instead of just repeating a phrase you'd picked up from your religious socialization (teachings).

[Rekeisha]

Insults, Cults, and a miss understanding of the Bible, Christianity, and history. Is this your defense?

Where is Jesus' body if He is dead? What happened to it and how do you know this?
If Jesus didn't died then how did he survive crucifixion?
Why do you assume that I don't look? What teachers do you think I have? What is your evidence that I have teachers that tell me not to look?
Was this the Christianity your grew up in?
Do you actually believe what you wrote? (this is not trying to be an insult but an honest question.)

No, it's not my "defense". It's my offense. Because you're the one coming here with insane propositions about magical beings/events, and spouting cult mantras. And I do understand history and the Bible. I'm just not stating it in a way you're accustomed to hearing, and you don't like my answers.

Likely Jesus was buried in a mass grave like the traitorous criminal that he was, according to the Romans (that's one of two ways they disposed of crucifixion victims, the other being a roadside stake "to set an example", as with the killing of Spartacus and his followers, according to that story). I don't know what happened to the body; that's the point, no one does. The stories that cropped up later aren't evidence of anything but storytelling. 

I don't know where you get "Jesus didn't died" [sic] from what I wrote, because I'm saying that he DID die, and his apostles came up with a bullshit story about it to say he's not really dead, and will be back "soon".

I say you do not look because you have been trained by the culture of your church, subtly and over years, to reject anything that does not fit the presupposed idea. I have explained the ways, above, in which what you are saying matches that of what cultists say. You yourself have made comments about rejecting evidence that doesn't fit the Bible, which makes you what I call a "Bible Idolator", unwilling to even seriously consider  that it's just a book written by people who didn't have the knowledge we have today, and might be completely mistaken. My evidence that you have teachers that tell you not to look and what to say is that you are saying every thing I used to say when I was like you, 22 years ago, and those teachers taught me to ignore "Man's Knowledge" and reject "the World", and to "lean not on my own understanding". You sound just like my entire social circle, back then, including myself.

Yes, I believe every word I wrote. I pride myself on intellectual honesty and integrity. I think a religion is just a cult with more members, and we have just spent so long with religious domination of our culture that it's hard for people to realize that the things they are saying sound insane  from a rational perspective. That's why I tried showing you what it looked like when I plugged "Ahura Mazda" and "Mithras" (Zoroastrian/Persian god and son of god) into the your statement, before. I wanted you to stop and look at it with fresh eyes, instead of just repeating a phrase you'd picked up from your religious socialization (teachings).

Why would the disciples die for a lie? Some were crucified when they could have easily said that Jesus didn't rise from the grave. If they didn't see Jesus then what was the point?

[Cyberman]

Do you think the September 11 hijackers were justified in their actions? Why would they die for a lie?

[Nonpareil]

Why would the disciples die for a lie?

Ask the dead of Jonestown.

[Whateverist]

Reason #1 why just following Jesus won't work: that sucker hasn't moved an inch in 2,000 years. You can't follow what doesn't move.

Or maybe it just means follow his example. If only our born again elected officials here in the states would do that instead of obsessing about eliminating the few entitlements we have for the poor.

[robvalue]

I realised something. "Christian atheist" isn't actually as weird as it sounds.

The religion someone is a member of only tells you about their professed beliefs. It gives no indication as to whether they actually believe any of them. A person is an atheist if they actually don't believe in God, regardless of what they profess.

In this way, there are probably a very high number of atheist Christians. The reasons for this will vary of course.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Why would the disciples die for a lie? Some were crucified when they could have easily said that Jesus didn't rise from the grave. If they didn't see Jesus then what was the point?

Sweetie, none of them were executed for "refusing to say Jesus didn't rise from the grave". Not one.

They were executed as followers and promoters of a false and pernicious doctrine that claimed authority was in a Jewish man who was called "The Annointed One" (messiah), and not in the "true authority", the Roman Emperor who "rightfully" ruled the Roman Province of Judea.

Their teachings were seen as treasonous. They saw their teachings as nationalist, at least at first, and later spread the word as it had evolved to the other provinces of Rome. The authorities, according to Josephus and Tacitus (et al) felt this was a dangerous anti-authoritarian cult that needed to be wiped out. They failed, and the religion grew and changed with time.

---

If you'd like to try an experiment, start a religious sect (it can be Christian, or not, as you prefer) and teach the members of the group that the United States has no authority and that members can defy the laws and customs of the country.

See how long they tolerate you. Oh, it won't be as soon or as harsh as the Romans were, where defying the Emperor was seen as akin to defying the authority of the gods, and defying the Empire got you killed. But it'll happen, even here where the USA guarantees you can believe whatever you want.

Your image of Romans killing Christians for refusing to deny that Jesus rose from the dead is a comic-book story, making the Romans out to either be buffoons or demonic puppets, instead of the most efficient military the world had ever seen up to that time. The Romans were actually famous for religious tolerance, so long as you didn't have a religious view that denied the authority of Rome... then you might have to die.

Like America did with the Branch Davidians.

[robvalue]

Regardless of specifics, the "die for a lie" argument is totally broken. Simply put, the level to which someone believes something, and what they are prepared to do for that belief, in no way tells you whether the belief is actually true. People can be mistaken. There seems to be this weird notion that no one from 2000 years ago could possibly ever be mistaken about anything.

Tracey Harris gives a clinical takedown of it here:

http://youtu.be/bHEiBvB-Xu0