The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Rekeisha]

You have created a false god to deem evil. You don't even understand what evil is and have a skewed view of the world and how evil people. I say this because your statement is naive there are people out there doing evil every day and you are blind to the evil inside your own heart.  You have too high of a view of people and too low of a view of God.

Please understand that I only think your god is evil on paper, the way he and his actions are described. He's not actually evil in the same way that Lord Sauron is not actually evil (by virtue of not existing). My views about your god are rooted strictly in the same book you're preaching at me from.

In every translation, in every story, that character is completely horrible. I'm sorry you don't agree, but it's just the truth. God kills more humans and directly causes more suffering than literally any other character in that book. He is jealous, vengeful, wrathful, and demanding of the blood of humans and animals to sate his rage and lust for conquest. He is a volcano-sky-god of savages and warmongers. If you remove all the passages that simply state "God is good" or something along those lines and look strictly at what he does and says, your god is worse than any villain from any story I can think of.

If you had faith in the same God that I do then you would still have faith in Him because He isn't the kind of God that will lose His people.

If you had read your Bible as much as I have, you wouldn't believe in your god.

That is why I know it is impossible for you to have had the same faith as I do. You keep explaining your idea of God, and it shows me that you never believed in God. No one who knows Him like I do would ever call Him evil.

And this is how I know that you've done the necessary mental gymnastics to separate the warm fuzzy voice in your head from the monstrous despot that your holy book actually depicts. The God in your head wouldn't act that way because you wouldn't act that way, and your concept of God is ultimately a projection of yourself (like everyone's). This means you actually follow your own moral framework rather than following the Bible outright (thankfully), and your moral framework is vastly superior to what your Bible commands. You, yourself, are actually much, much more moral than the god of the Bible.

If you believe like I do you would enjoy Him and find comfort in His word. It would be enjoyable to be in His presence and you would be happy for the day you die because you would be with Him.

Yes, I used to be in your death cult, and yes, I used to think that death was pretty much the best thing ever because Heaven, or whatever.


Then I read the Bible enough to realize that according to its claims, most people (including most Christians) don't actually get into heaven, and that Jehovah is essentially callous toward any struggle we go through as humans, in this life or the next, and that he loves the smell of burning flesh and blood.


Then I finally allowed myself to view my own religious beliefs with the same skepticism and concern for truth that had lead me to discard most other people's religious beliefs, and I realized that my religion was founded on just as much myth, superstition, and fallacy as any other. That's when I stopped believing. It didn't really have anything to do with thinking God was evil; it was mostly about whether it was reasonable to believe in God at all. Turns out it's not. Oh well. I've been wrong about other things.

You would pray to know Him more and you would not want to do anything that would hurt Him because you loved Him. Your would seek to spend your life for Him not out of duty but because He is worth it. You would see people walking down the street wish that they would understand the beauty of God. You would enjoy being able to speak about His goodness and enjoy the presence of God when He gives you the power to do so.  So if you believed like I do you would still believe and be growing in faith and joy. You would long to stare at God and see how beautiful He is and be amazed at His faithfulness. You don't though so it isn't the same. You talk about christianity like it was a job to you and a list of dos and don'ts. You hate the very thought of God and that I would talk to you about Him. You keep giving me your resume of christian works as if that proves something about you faith in God.  You speak more about what you achieved in christianity than your love for God. It isn't the same.

Blah blah fucking blah.


"If you ever really believed, you still would! No True Christian leaves the faith!"


It's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, and it's a lie. Talking about my actions is the only way for me to objectively demonstrate the depth of my involvement with faith and ministry; I was kicking out ghosts on my own time, not with my church. I was actively involved in spiritual warfare. I am not bragging because I'm not actually proud of any of this; I am only telling you this as a demonstration of how sincerely deluded I was. Sincere faith in storybook characters is the reason I did those things, and despite all your hemming and hawing to the contrary, I know better. I know what I believed, and I know how sincerely I believed it.


And no, I don't hate your god any more than I hate Jafar or that shitty little mustache-guy that always fights Rocky and Bullwinkle. I do sort of hate that religion indoctrinates people into believing in garbage like that, and convincing people that the Bible is a justification for hindering scientific progress and acting spiteful toward women and gays, but that has mostly to do with people and not that much to do with the book itself.

You hate His word so you hate God. 

You call the God of the bible evil but you don't have a moral standard, that can stand the test of time, to actually make this claim. You worldview can't support evil. You must imagine that there is worth and that there is evil. Nothing is solid so this book can't be evil because people from another culture. It would be arrogant for you to use your own social standards to judge them. By your worldview people are just animated materials like they were and the way they choose to live is the way they choose to live. Your claim on evil only works if people have intrinsic value and there is an absolute right way and wrong way to treat a person.  It must be given and it must be given by someone who is powerful enough to uphold those standards.

You make up your own god by misreading scripture then use your own flawed and arbitrary morals to judge Him. It won't save you. You are blinded by your sin and that blindness will not save you. Just because a blind man can't see the sun doesn't make it not exist and just because you played christian for 20 years doesn't make you right and God wrong.  God isn't imaginary but loving and caring enough to warn you. 

He isn't spiteful towards women or people who are gay. He loves them fiercely enough to die for them in order to make them Holy. You have taken what societies is currently saying about God and try to indict Him for injustice, but you are only judging yourself. Do you fight for the rights of women. Do you seek their purity and holiness? Do you fight for their equality even if it would cause you to die? Do you see pass the gay person's sexul orentaion and know that trying to find worth in labels that have been made up. That they are worth more than being bound to lies. Do you see them as souls to be loved and cared for people who have worth? Not based on how people value the but something that they were born with. The are far more than who they are attracted to that you can't be completed by another person. That joy isn't found in sex or human companionship. God sees people who need saving and makes them aware of what is destroying them that will cause hurt, but you seem to just want to lie to them and say everything is ok. People are in pain and need to know that no matter what they have done or will do God loves them with a scandalous love. A love that would make Him die a humiliating death so that they can receive a love that never lets go. A love that goes beyond death and the grave and that will fill them with hope.  He doesn't care what society says, but He moves towards them with love and care. The people he resist are the proud. Those who want to play god and spread lies. Your view of God again shows me that instead of seeking what the Bible actually says you seek to look at the bible with your own social lense. You take your cues from what people say instead of trusting God.

[FebruaryOfReason]

I reprogrammed my SatNav to follow Jesus.

I ended up in Croydon.

[drfuzzy]

---

Please understand that I only think your god is evil on paper, the way he and his actions are described. He's not actually evil in the same way that Lord Sauron is not actually evil (by virtue of not existing). My views about your god are rooted strictly in the same book you're preaching at me from.

In every translation, in every story, that character is completely horrible. I'm sorry you don't agree, but it's just the truth. God kills more humans and directly causes more suffering than literally any other character in that book. He is jealous, vengeful, wrathful, and demanding of the blood of humans and animals to sate his rage and lust for conquest. He is a volcano-sky-god of savages and warmongers. If you remove all the passages that simply state "God is good" or something along those lines and look strictly at what he does and says, your god is worse than any villain from any story I can think of.




If you had read your Bible as much as I have, you wouldn't believe in your god.




And this is how I know that you've done the necessary mental gymnastics to separate the warm fuzzy voice in your head from the monstrous despot that your holy book actually depicts. The God in your head wouldn't act that way because you wouldn't act that way, and your concept of God is ultimately a projection of yourself (like everyone's). This means you actually follow your own moral framework rather than following the Bible outright (thankfully), and your moral framework is vastly superior to what your Bible commands. You, yourself, are actually much, much more moral than the god of the Bible.




Yes, I used to be in your death cult, and yes, I used to think that death was pretty much the best thing ever because Heaven, or whatever.


Then I read the Bible enough to realize that according to its claims, most people (including most Christians) don't actually get into heaven, and that Jehovah is essentially callous toward any struggle we go through as humans, in this life or the next, and that he loves the smell of burning flesh and blood.


Then I finally allowed myself to view my own religious beliefs with the same skepticism and concern for truth that had lead me to discard most other people's religious beliefs, and I realized that my religion was founded on just as much myth, superstition, and fallacy as any other. That's when I stopped believing. It didn't really have anything to do with thinking God was evil; it was mostly about whether it was reasonable to believe in God at all. Turns out it's not. Oh well. I've been wrong about other things.




Blah blah fucking blah.


"If you ever really believed, you still would! No True Christian leaves the faith!"


It's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, and it's a lie. Talking about my actions is the only way for me to objectively demonstrate the depth of my involvement with faith and ministry; I was kicking out ghosts on my own time, not with my church. I was actively involved in spiritual warfare. I am not bragging because I'm not actually proud of any of this; I am only telling you this as a demonstration of how sincerely deluded I was. Sincere faith in storybook characters is the reason I did those things, and despite all your hemming and hawing to the contrary, I know better. I know what I believed, and I know how sincerely I believed it.


And no, I don't hate your god any more than I hate Jafar or that shitty little mustache-guy that always fights Rocky and Bullwinkle. I do sort of hate that religion indoctrinates people into believing in garbage like that, and convincing people that the Bible is a justification for hindering scientific progress and acting spiteful toward women and gays, but that has mostly to do with people and not that much to do with the book itself.

---

You hate His word so you hate God. 

You call the God of the bible evil but you don't have a moral standard, that can stand the test of time, to actually make this claim. You worldview can't support evil. You must imagine that there is worth and that there is evil. Nothing is solid so this book can't be evil because people from another culture. It would be arrogant for you to use your own social standards to judge them. By your worldview people are just animated materials like they were and the way they choose to live is the way they choose to live. Your claim on evil only works if people have intrinsic value and there is an absolute right way and wrong way to treat a person.  It must be given and it must be given by someone who is powerful enough to uphold those standards.

You make up your own god by misreading scripture then use your own flawed and arbitrary morals to judge Him. It won't save you. You are blinded by your sin and that blindness will not save you. Just because a blind man can't see the sun doesn't make it not exist and just because you played christian for 20 years doesn't make you right and God wrong.  God isn't imaginary but loving and caring enough to warn you. 

He isn't spiteful towards women or people who are gay. He loves them fiercely enough to die for them in order to make them Holy. You have taken what societies is currently saying about God and try to indict Him for injustice, but you are only judging yourself. Do you fight for the rights of women. Do you seek their purity and holiness? Do you fight for their equality even if it would cause you to die? Do you see pass the gay person's sexul orentaion and know that trying to find worth in labels that have been made up. That they are worth more than being bound to lies. Do you see them as souls to be loved and cared for people who have worth? Not based on how people value the but something that they were born with. The are far more than who they are attracted to that you can't be completed by another person. That joy isn't found in sex or human companionship. God sees people who need saving and makes them aware of what is destroying them that will cause hurt, but you seem to just want to lie to them and say everything is ok. People are in pain and need to know that no matter what they have done or will do God loves them with a scandalous love. A love that would make Him die a humiliating death so that they can receive a love that never lets go. A love that goes beyond death and the grave and that will fill them with hope.  He doesn't care what society says, but He moves towards them with love and care. The people he resist are the proud. Those who want to play god and spread lies. Your view of God again shows me that instead of seeking what the Bible actually says you seek to look at the bible with your own social lense. You take your cues from what people say instead of trusting God.

Yep.  Another "I have my magical book that tells me all about my imaginary friend, therefore I am better than anyone who doesn't believe in my book and my friend".  Then they use that supposedly magical book of fairy tales to bash and insult anyone that disagrees with them, and strut off, thinking that they have proven their superiority.  It's nothing more than an sociopathic ego trip.  
     Threats and putdowns aren't going to win anyone over, they just prove to us that xtians are NASTY and I never, ever, want to be anything like you.  Go join the Westboro folks, you belong there.

[Redbeard The Pink]

You hate His word so you hate God.

Lol no. God doesn't exist.


Besides, that doesn't even follow. Even if god did exist and he had actually written that book, hating a book doesn't automatically mean you hate its author. That's just stupid.

You call the God of the bible evil but you don't have a moral standard, that can stand the test of time, to actually make this claim. You worldview can't support evil. You must imagine that there is worth and that there is evil.

The Golden Rule is arguably our oldest moral principle, found in documents that predate the Bible by literally thousands of years. It has been in circulation and practice for virtually all of human history. What part of that makes it seem to you like human moral principles won't stand the test of time?


My views on evil are not motivated by whether humans have intrinsic worth or value. They're motivated by empathy and an understanding of suffering. Actions are not evil because they violate a person's "worth," they're evil because they needlessly inflict suffering and/or detract from the well-being of one or more individuals. My morality is informed by the actual greater good and not some arbitrary list of rules, and that's what makes it better and more useful than yours.

Nothing is solid so this book can't be evil because people from another culture. It would be arrogant for you to use your own social standards to judge them.

You keep going back to this "You don't believe in a creator therefore nothing you believe can be definite," thing, and I have thoroughly explained multiple times why that is an asinine assertion. If you still don't understand, I really don't have anything else to say about that matter. Sprout a brain, already.


The social standards of my time produce objectively better results in terms of human rights and human suffering, so my social standards are objectively better than the Bible. Your book only produces results in the event that your god and your hell actually exist, which you still have yet to demonstrate.

By your worldview people are just animated materials like they were and the way they choose to live is the way they choose to live.

And if they choose to live in a way that is contrary to social morality, they are ostracized and/or punished by society. Sure, that means that the over-arching morality is ultimately what's in charge, but that's been getting consistently better throughout history, and that correlates directly with the decline of religion and the increase in secularism around the globe, especially in government. The last few theocracies left are Muslim ones, and those countries are some of the most backward in terms of human rights. A few hundred years ago, your religion was acting just like that.

Your claim on evil only works if people have intrinsic value and there is an absolute right way and wrong way to treat a person.  It must be given and it must be given by someone who is powerful enough to uphold those standards.

No. It functions on whether a choice will cause unnecessary harm/suffering, which has nothing to do with whether a person has value. Regardless of how much "worth" I place on my own life or someone else's, I still recognize that I don't want to suffer or be harmed and can reason out that I shouldn't inflict those things on others. We've been over this.

You make up your own god by misreading scripture then use your own flawed and arbitrary morals to judge Him. It won't save you. You are blinded by your sin and that blindness will not save you. Just because a blind man can't see the sun doesn't make it not exist and just because you played christian for 20 years doesn't make you right and God wrong.  God isn't imaginary but loving and caring enough to warn you.

You have yet to demonstrate that there's anything to be saved from, or anything to do the saving. If you applied your standard of evidence consistently, you would have to accept testimonies and scriptures from hundreds of religions, virtually all of which contradict your own. If you took the standard of evidence you use for other religions and applied it to yours, you'd see why yours doesn't hold up better than anybody else's.


That's presuming that you've critically evaluated anyone else's religion, of course, rather than simply accepting what your pastor says about them. I sort of think you probably just accept what your pastor says, though, don't you?


And no, the word is "threaten." You're threatening me on behalf of this god, not warning me.

He isn't spiteful towards women or people who are gay. He loves them fiercely enough to die for them in order to make them Holy.

Yes, in the vicarious human blood sacrifice for your war god in your death cult. I know. And yes, he's hostile toward gays and women. Old Testament law makes that pretty clear, and Jesus is pretty clear in the New Testament that not one letter of the law is to be forgotten or changed, and so is Paul. I know you think you can somehow dismiss huge portions of the Old Testament while still keeping things like the (wrong) 10 Commandments, the junk about creation, and a whole mess of other garbage I'm sure you still believe, but those of us who are critical, rational thinkers have to be a little more consistent with how we view bodies of text.

You have taken what societies is currently saying about God and try to indict Him for injustice, but you are only judging yourself.

More religious jargon. Your god doesn't exist, and he's not going to judge me.

Do you fight for the rights of women.[

Is that a question or a statement?


I'm a lover, not a fighter.

Do you seek their purity and holiness?

Those are not real things.

Do you fight for their equality even if it would cause you to die?

See above statement concerning being a lover and not a fighter.

Do you see pass the gay person's sexul orentaion and know that trying to find worth in labels that have been made up.

Yes, and I manage to do it without needing to believe that they'll be tortured forever when they die.

That they are worth more than being bound to lies.

I certainly think people shouldn't bind themselves to lies, and that's why I don't think anyone should bind themselves to your religion or anyone else's.

Do you see them as souls to be loved and cared for people who have worth?

Souls are not real, and the idea of "worth" has little or nothing to do with whether a person should be treated well for reasons I have already outlined twice in this post and elsewhere in this thread.

Not based on how people value the but something that they were born with.

People are born as humans, and that's a trait we share that allows me to empathize with them, and that informs how I treat them. Trying to place "value" on living beings is kind of barbaric in the first place.

The are far more than who they are attracted to that you can't be completed by another person.

I absolutely think they are more than who they are attracted to, whereas your god would be willing to damn them forever for that fact alone, ignoring the rest of their existence. Just another example of how I'm more moral than your god.

That joy isn't found in sex or human companionship.

Joy can be found in all kinds of places: sex, companionship, romance, athletic achievement, financial success...the fact that I can find joy in all these things and you only find joy in your imaginary friend just means my life has more joy in it than yours does, which is yet another reason why my world view is objectively more positive than yours.

God sees people who need saving and makes them aware of what is destroying them that will cause hurt, but you seem to just want to lie to them and say everything is ok.

I certainly don't want people lied to, which is why I'm against religion.

People are in pain and need to know that no matter what they have done or will do God loves them with a scandalous love. A love that would make Him die a humiliating death so that they can receive a love that never lets go. A love that goes beyond death and the grave and that will fill them with hope.

A love that will burn them in hell for eternity unless they blindly accept a story that contradicts mountains of evidence in the very reality that this god supposedly created. Don't forget that part.

He doesn't care what society says, but He moves towards them with love and care. The people he resist are the proud. Those who want to play god and spread lies. Your view of God again shows me that instead of seeking what the Bible actually says you seek to look at the bible with your own social lense. You take your cues from what people say instead of trusting God.

While that isn't true, taking "cues" from real people would still be a better idea than taking them from a fictional character.


Then again, taking cues from people is the reason that you think you're taking cues from a fictional character, so no, I try to avoid just blindly listening to anyone. I go by what the evidence says, and the evidence says that your god is a make-believe being contrived by ancient desert-dwelling scribes who knew no better than the people who used to blame thunder and lightning on Zeus or Thor.

[Rekeisha]

You hate His word so you hate God.

Lol no. God doesn't exist.


Besides, that doesn't even follow. Even if god did exist and he had actually written that book, hating a book doesn't automatically mean you hate its author. That's just stupid.

You call the God of the bible evil but you don't have a moral standard, that can stand the test of time, to actually make this claim. You worldview can't support evil. You must imagine that there is worth and that there is evil.

The Golden Rule is arguably our oldest moral principle, found in documents that predate the Bible by literally thousands of years. It has been in circulation and practice for virtually all of human history. What part of that makes it seem to you like human moral principles won't stand the test of time?


My views on evil are not motivated by whether humans have intrinsic worth or value. They're motivated by empathy and an understanding of suffering. Actions are not evil because they violate a person's "worth," they're evil because they needlessly inflict suffering and/or detract from the well-being of one or more individuals. My morality is informed by the actual greater good and not some arbitrary list of rules, and that's what makes it better and more useful than yours.

Nothing is solid so this book can't be evil because people from another culture. It would be arrogant for you to use your own social standards to judge them.

You keep going back to this "You don't believe in a creator therefore nothing you believe can be definite," thing, and I have thoroughly explained multiple times why that is an asinine assertion. If you still don't understand, I really don't have anything else to say about that matter. Sprout a brain, already.


The social standards of my time produce objectively better results in terms of human rights and human suffering, so my social standards are objectively better than the Bible. Your book only produces results in the event that your god and your hell actually exist, which you still have yet to demonstrate.

By your worldview people are just animated materials like they were and the way they choose to live is the way they choose to live.

And if they choose to live in a way that is contrary to social morality, they are ostracized and/or punished by society. Sure, that means that the over-arching morality is ultimately what's in charge, but that's been getting consistently better throughout history, and that correlates directly with the decline of religion and the increase in secularism around the globe, especially in government. The last few theocracies left are Muslim ones, and those countries are some of the most backward in terms of human rights. A few hundred years ago, your religion was acting just like that.

Your claim on evil only works if people have intrinsic value and there is an absolute right way and wrong way to treat a person.  It must be given and it must be given by someone who is powerful enough to uphold those standards.

No. It functions on whether a choice will cause unnecessary harm/suffering, which has nothing to do with whether a person has value. Regardless of how much "worth" I place on my own life or someone else's, I still recognize that I don't want to suffer or be harmed and can reason out that I shouldn't inflict those things on others. We've been over this.

You make up your own god by misreading scripture then use your own flawed and arbitrary morals to judge Him. It won't save you. You are blinded by your sin and that blindness will not save you. Just because a blind man can't see the sun doesn't make it not exist and just because you played christian for 20 years doesn't make you right and God wrong.  God isn't imaginary but loving and caring enough to warn you.

You have yet to demonstrate that there's anything to be saved from, or anything to do the saving. If you applied your standard of evidence consistently, you would have to accept testimonies and scriptures from hundreds of religions, virtually all of which contradict your own. If you took the standard of evidence you use for other religions and applied it to yours, you'd see why yours doesn't hold up better than anybody else's.


That's presuming that you've critically evaluated anyone else's religion, of course, rather than simply accepting what your pastor says about them. I sort of think you probably just accept what your pastor says, though, don't you?


And no, the word is "threaten." You're threatening me on behalf of this god, not warning me.

He isn't spiteful towards women or people who are gay. He loves them fiercely enough to die for them in order to make them Holy.

Yes, in the vicarious human blood sacrifice for your war god in your death cult. I know. And yes, he's hostile toward gays and women. Old Testament law makes that pretty clear, and Jesus is pretty clear in the New Testament that not one letter of the law is to be forgotten or changed, and so is Paul. I know you think you can somehow dismiss huge portions of the Old Testament while still keeping things like the (wrong) 10 Commandments, the junk about creation, and a whole mess of other garbage I'm sure you still believe, but those of us who are critical, rational thinkers have to be a little more consistent with how we view bodies of text.

You have taken what societies is currently saying about God and try to indict Him for injustice, but you are only judging yourself.

More religious jargon. Your god doesn't exist, and he's not going to judge me.

Do you fight for the rights of women.[

Is that a question or a statement?


I'm a lover, not a fighter.

Do you seek their purity and holiness?

Those are not real things.

Do you fight for their equality even if it would cause you to die?

See above statement concerning being a lover and not a fighter.

Do you see pass the gay person's sexul orentaion and know that trying to find worth in labels that have been made up.

Yes, and I manage to do it without needing to believe that they'll be tortured forever when they die.

That they are worth more than being bound to lies.

I certainly think people shouldn't bind themselves to lies, and that's why I don't think anyone should bind themselves to your religion or anyone else's.

Do you see them as souls to be loved and cared for people who have worth?

Souls are not real, and the idea of "worth" has little or nothing to do with whether a person should be treated well for reasons I have already outlined twice in this post and elsewhere in this thread.

Not based on how people value the but something that they were born with.

People are born as humans, and that's a trait we share that allows me to empathize with them, and that informs how I treat them. Trying to place "value" on living beings is kind of barbaric in the first place.

The are far more than who they are attracted to that you can't be completed by another person.

I absolutely think they are more than who they are attracted to, whereas your god would be willing to damn them forever for that fact alone, ignoring the rest of their existence. Just another example of how I'm more moral than your god.

That joy isn't found in sex or human companionship.

Joy can be found in all kinds of places: sex, companionship, romance, athletic achievement, financial success...the fact that I can find joy in all these things and you only find joy in your imaginary friend just means my life has more joy in it than yours does, which is yet another reason why my world view is objectively more positive than yours.

God sees people who need saving and makes them aware of what is destroying them that will cause hurt, but you seem to just want to lie to them and say everything is ok.

I certainly don't want people lied to, which is why I'm against religion.

People are in pain and need to know that no matter what they have done or will do God loves them with a scandalous love. A love that would make Him die a humiliating death so that they can receive a love that never lets go. A love that goes beyond death and the grave and that will fill them with hope.

A love that will burn them in hell for eternity unless they blindly accept a story that contradicts mountains of evidence in the very reality that this god supposedly created. Don't forget that part.

He doesn't care what society says, but He moves towards them with love and care. The people he resist are the proud. Those who want to play god and spread lies. Your view of God again shows me that instead of seeking what the Bible actually says you seek to look at the bible with your own social lense. You take your cues from what people say instead of trusting God.

While that isn't true, taking "cues" from real people would still be a better idea than taking them from a fictional character.


Then again, taking cues from people is the reason that you think you're taking cues from a fictional character, so no, I try to avoid just blindly listening to anyone. I go by what the evidence says, and the evidence says that your god is a make-believe being contrived by ancient desert-dwelling scribes who knew no better than the people who used to blame thunder and lightning on Zeus or Thor.

You view of books are simplistic not all books are about the same thing so depending on what the book is about determines you view on the author. Your view of the Bible is also simplistic and your understanding of how God communicates is flawed. The Bible is full of stories reflecting God's glory and our depravity. Since you reject this truth you hate God. 


Where did you first encounter the Golden Rule? Also your rendition of the Golden rule that you now ascribe to, If I am remembering correctly, is a negative version. Don't do to people that you wouldn't want them to do to you. So this just means don't do avoid certain behaviors that from your point of view would be harmful. The Golden Rule goes further and tells you to act on that person's behalf. To humble yourself and move towards a person for his or her good. 


Your motivations on calling something evil is simplistic and narrow. You don't understand the fullness of what is evil because you don't understand the fullness of what suffering is and what it is for. You don't know what is good for a person in the long run. You are only using your limited understanding of how you feel and how people say that a things should be. You don't know everything so you can't fully understand suffering. You don't full understand enjoying a thing so you can't see how this too can cause suffering and pain. You don't accept that there is purity so you can't see how certain things will corrupt a person. Since, you don't think people can be pure then you don't see that impurity must be removed therefore you leave people in their pain and suffering. You can only judge by what you see not by what actually is. You lack knowledge, wisdom, and understanding to rightly apply the Golden Rule d and your assertion that you have and do is arrogant. 

You again have a narrow minded view and hold prejudice views on past cultures. You believe that because you were born at a certain time that you are now so morally and socially advanced that you can understand the nuances and needs of a person throughout time... You have no control over the time you were born in but you pride yourself with your moral superiority? You are blind to your moral weakness and to this prejudice. This again is arrogant.

As for gays. God would be right if he killed all of humankind, but He move towards all of His enemies in a loving way. God says that pride is an abomination and I have struggled with this for the majority of life. This is a condemnation just like that person who participates in any sexual sin. Instead of just sending me to Hell Jesus died on the cross for my sins and theirs. There is no one on the face of the planet that has any moral high ground. There is no one who doesn't deserve God's condemnation. You view your sin so lightly that you have blinded yourself to all the evil that is around. You also miss a great deal of pain and suffering and the ones that you do you can only cover up with platitudes and behavior modification. Your narrow view of what is actually happening with the human soul is lacking. This  is proven by the fact that you don't believe it exist. Your viewpoint will only keep people enslaved to their pain and suffering not free them from it. God not only can free them from their sin enslavement but also from suffering. Not in this life but in the next. Also He doesn't give people platitudes He uses His own body to heal their pain. He doesn't give them lies about how they are but names their sin then gives them a few identity through His love and grace. 

Don't hide behind insults and falsehoods you know exactly what you need saving from you know that your actions will lead to destruction. God is purifying the world and if you choose to hang onto your sin He will remove you. Yet, in His grace He moves towards you and will walk you

[drfuzzy]

---

Lol no. God doesn't exist.


Besides, that doesn't even follow. Even if god did exist and he had actually written that book, hating a book doesn't automatically mean you hate its author. That's just stupid.




The Golden Rule is arguably our oldest moral principle, found in documents that predate the Bible by literally thousands of years. It has been in circulation and practice for virtually all of human history. What part of that makes it seem to you like human moral principles won't stand the test of time?


My views on evil are not motivated by whether humans have intrinsic worth or value. They're motivated by empathy and an understanding of suffering. Actions are not evil because they violate a person's "worth," they're evil because they needlessly inflict suffering and/or detract from the well-being of one or more individuals. My morality is informed by the actual greater good and not some arbitrary list of rules, and that's what makes it better and more useful than yours.




You keep going back to this "You don't believe in a creator therefore nothing you believe can be definite," thing, and I have thoroughly explained multiple times why that is an asinine assertion. If you still don't understand, I really don't have anything else to say about that matter. Sprout a brain, already.


The social standards of my time produce objectively better results in terms of human rights and human suffering, so my social standards are objectively better than the Bible. Your book only produces results in the event that your god and your hell actually exist, which you still have yet to demonstrate.




And if they choose to live in a way that is contrary to social morality, they are ostracized and/or punished by society. Sure, that means that the over-arching morality is ultimately what's in charge, but that's been getting consistently better throughout history, and that correlates directly with the decline of religion and the increase in secularism around the globe, especially in government. The last few theocracies left are Muslim ones, and those countries are some of the most backward in terms of human rights. A few hundred years ago, your religion was acting just like that.




No. It functions on whether a choice will cause unnecessary harm/suffering, which has nothing to do with whether a person has value. Regardless of how much "worth" I place on my own life or someone else's, I still recognize that I don't want to suffer or be harmed and can reason out that I shouldn't inflict those things on others. We've been over this.




You have yet to demonstrate that there's anything to be saved from, or anything to do the saving. If you applied your standard of evidence consistently, you would have to accept testimonies and scriptures from hundreds of religions, virtually all of which contradict your own. If you took the standard of evidence you use for other religions and applied it to yours, you'd see why yours doesn't hold up better than anybody else's.


That's presuming that you've critically evaluated anyone else's religion, of course, rather than simply accepting what your pastor says about them. I sort of think you probably just accept what your pastor says, though, don't you?


And no, the word is "threaten." You're threatening me on behalf of this god, not warning me.




Yes, in the vicarious human blood sacrifice for your war god in your death cult. I know. And yes, he's hostile toward gays and women. Old Testament law makes that pretty clear, and Jesus is pretty clear in the New Testament that not one letter of the law is to be forgotten or changed, and so is Paul. I know you think you can somehow dismiss huge portions of the Old Testament while still keeping things like the (wrong) 10 Commandments, the junk about creation, and a whole mess of other garbage I'm sure you still believe, but those of us who are critical, rational thinkers have to be a little more consistent with how we view bodies of text.




More religious jargon. Your god doesn't exist, and he's not going to judge me.




Is that a question or a statement?


I'm a lover, not a fighter.




Those are not real things.




See above statement concerning being a lover and not a fighter.




Yes, and I manage to do it without needing to believe that they'll be tortured forever when they die.




I certainly think people shouldn't bind themselves to lies, and that's why I don't think anyone should bind themselves to your religion or anyone else's.




Souls are not real, and the idea of "worth" has little or nothing to do with whether a person should be treated well for reasons I have already outlined twice in this post and elsewhere in this thread.




People are born as humans, and that's a trait we share that allows me to empathize with them, and that informs how I treat them. Trying to place "value" on living beings is kind of barbaric in the first place.




I absolutely think they are more than who they are attracted to, whereas your god would be willing to damn them forever for that fact alone, ignoring the rest of their existence. Just another example of how I'm more moral than your god.




Joy can be found in all kinds of places: sex, companionship, romance, athletic achievement, financial success...the fact that I can find joy in all these things and you only find joy in your imaginary friend just means my life has more joy in it than yours does, which is yet another reason why my world view is objectively more positive than yours.




I certainly don't want people lied to, which is why I'm against religion.




A love that will burn them in hell for eternity unless they blindly accept a story that contradicts mountains of evidence in the very reality that this god supposedly created. Don't forget that part.




While that isn't true, taking "cues" from real people would still be a better idea than taking them from a fictional character.


Then again, taking cues from people is the reason that you think you're taking cues from a fictional character, so no, I try to avoid just blindly listening to anyone. I go by what the evidence says, and the evidence says that your god is a make-believe being contrived by ancient desert-dwelling scribes who knew no better than the people who used to blame thunder and lightning on Zeus or Thor.

---

---

You view of books are simplistic not all books are about the same thing so depending on what the book is about determines you view on the author. Your view of the Bible is also simplistic and your understanding of how God communicates is flawed. The Bible is full of stories reflecting God's glory and our depravity. Since you reject this truth you hate God. 


Where did you first encounter the Golden Rule? Also your rendition of the Golden rule that you now ascribe to, If I am remembering correctly, is a negative version. Don't do to people that you wouldn't want them to do to you. So this just means don't do avoid certain behaviors that from your point of view would be harmful. The Golden Rule goes further and tells you to act on that person's behalf. To humble yourself and move towards a person for his or her good. 

---

Your motivations on calling something evil is simplistic and narrow. You don't understand the fullness of what is evil because you don't understand the fullness of what suffering is and what it is for. You don't know what is good for a person in the long run. You are only using your limited understanding of how you feel and how people say that a things should be. You don't know everything so you can't fully understand suffering. You don't full understand enjoying a thing so you can't see how this too can cause suffering and pain. You don't accept that there is purity so you can't see how certain things will corrupt a person. Since, you don't think people can be pure then you don't see that impurity must be removed therefore you leave people in their pain and suffering. You can only judge by what you see not by what actually is. You lack knowledge, wisdom, and understanding to rightly apply the Golden Rule d and your assertion that you have and do is arrogant. 

You again have a narrow minded view and hold prejudice views on past cultures. You believe that because you were born at a certain time that you are now so morally and socially advanced that you can understand the nuances and needs of a person throughout time... You have no control over the time you were born in but you pride yourself with your moral superiority? You are blind to your moral weakness and to this prejudice. This again is arrogant.

---

As for gays. God would be right if he killed all of humankind, but He move towards all of His enemies in a loving way. God says that pride is an abomination and I have struggled with this for the majority of life. This is a condemnation just like that person who participates in any sexual sin. Instead of just sending me to Hell Jesus died on the cross for my sins and theirs. There is no one on the face of the planet that has any moral high ground. There is no one who doesn't deserve God's condemnation. You view your sin so lightly that you have blinded yourself to all the evil that is around. You also miss a great deal of pain and suffering and the ones that you do you can only cover up with platitudes and behavior modification. Your narrow view of what is actually happening with the human soul is lacking. This  is proven by the fact that you don't believe it exist. Your viewpoint will only keep people enslaved to their pain and suffering not free them from it. God not only can free them from their sin enslavement but also from suffering. Not in this life but in the next. Also He doesn't give people platitudes He uses His own body to heal their pain. He doesn't give them lies about how they are but names their sin then gives them a few identity through His love and grace. 

Don't hide behind insults and falsehoods you know exactly what you need saving from you know that your actions will lead to destruction. God is purifying the world and if you choose to hang onto your sin He will remove you. Yet, in His grace He moves towards you and will walk you

---

Wow, was this a drunk post?  There is a lot of fragmentation and the grammar is pretty odd in places.  
It's also a HUGE ad hominem attack.  How DARE you tell anyone that you have never met that they "don't understand" something over and over and over and over and . . . yawn . . . JesusChrist wanking off on a cracker, what a BITCH.  Redbeard has treated YOU with understanding and gentleness and patience, over and over, and all you do is insult him.  And you accuse HIM of being narrow-minded, prejudiced, and arrogant??
Wow.  I have never seen such a HUGE example of the pot calling the kettle black.  Just Wow.  With every post you become more and more of a poster child for how your stupid death cult and your evil book and your imaginary friend turns human beings into assholes.
   

[Rekeisha]

---

You view of books are simplistic not all books are about the same thing so depending on what the book is about determines you view on the author. Your view of the Bible is also simplistic and your understanding of how God communicates is flawed. The Bible is full of stories reflecting God's glory and our depravity. Since you reject this truth you hate God. 


Where did you first encounter the Golden Rule? Also your rendition of the Golden rule that you now ascribe to, If I am remembering correctly, is a negative version. Don't do to people that you wouldn't want them to do to you. So this just means don't do avoid certain behaviors that from your point of view would be harmful. The Golden Rule goes further and tells you to act on that person's behalf. To humble yourself and move towards a person for his or her good. 

---

Your motivations on calling something evil is simplistic and narrow. You don't understand the fullness of what is evil because you don't understand the fullness of what suffering is and what it is for. You don't know what is good for a person in the long run. You are only using your limited understanding of how you feel and how people say that a things should be. You don't know everything so you can't fully understand suffering. You don't full understand enjoying a thing so you can't see how this too can cause suffering and pain. You don't accept that there is purity so you can't see how certain things will corrupt a person. Since, you don't think people can be pure then you don't see that impurity must be removed therefore you leave people in their pain and suffering. You can only judge by what you see not by what actually is. You lack knowledge, wisdom, and understanding to rightly apply the Golden Rule d and your assertion that you have and do is arrogant. 

You again have a narrow minded view and hold prejudice views on past cultures. You believe that because you were born at a certain time that you are now so morally and socially advanced that you can understand the nuances and needs of a person throughout time... You have no control over the time you were born in but you pride yourself with your moral superiority? You are blind to your moral weakness and to this prejudice. This again is arrogant.

---

As for gays. God would be right if he killed all of humankind, but He move towards all of His enemies in a loving way. God says that pride is an abomination and I have struggled with this for the majority of life. This is a condemnation just like that person who participates in any sexual sin. Instead of just sending me to Hell Jesus died on the cross for my sins and theirs. There is no one on the face of the planet that has any moral high ground. There is no one who doesn't deserve God's condemnation. You view your sin so lightly that you have blinded yourself to all the evil that is around. You also miss a great deal of pain and suffering and the ones that you do you can only cover up with platitudes and behavior modification. Your narrow view of what is actually happening with the human soul is lacking. This  is proven by the fact that you don't believe it exist. Your viewpoint will only keep people enslaved to their pain and suffering not free them from it. God not only can free them from their sin enslavement but also from suffering. Not in this life but in the next. Also He doesn't give people platitudes He uses His own body to heal their pain. He doesn't give them lies about how they are but names their sin then gives them a few identity through His love and grace. 

Don't hide behind insults and falsehoods you know exactly what you need saving from you know that your actions will lead to destruction. God is purifying the world and if you choose to hang onto your sin He will remove you. Yet, in His grace He moves towards you and will walk you

---

Wow, was this a drunk post?  There is a lot of fragmentation and the grammar is pretty odd in places.  
It's also a HUGE ad hominem attack.  How DARE you tell anyone that you have never met that they "don't understand" something over and over and over and over and . . . yawn . . . JesusChrist wanking off on a cracker, what a BITCH.  Redbeard has treated YOU with understanding and gentleness and patience, over and over, and all you do is insult him.  And you accuse HIM of being narrow-minded, prejudiced, and arrogant??
Wow.  I have never seen such a HUGE example of the pot calling the kettle black.  Just Wow.  With every post you become more and more of a poster child for how your stupid death cult and your evil book and your imaginary friend turns human beings into assholes.
   

Yep, I am bad at grammar, spelling and communication but I am working on it. 

To use your standard of right living what give you the right to correct my behavior? Are you attacking me? Are you saying that the way I am dealing with His is wrong and arrogant? If you believe that this kind of behavior is reprehensible then why are you behaving in the same way you so vehemently condemn?  

If you can get passed all of my incorrect grammar did you read why I called him arrogant and prejudice? Have you read my other post where I never claim I am better, but that I have the same sin nature as everyone else?

If you refuse to be corrected then you are rejecting knowledge. Don't let your pride keep you from learning the truth about yourself. God is the only one who can awaken you to your own sin to your own pride and prejudice. If you pretend to be above all of that you are lying to yourself because we all struggle with pride and prejudices. God is the only one who is pure and holy and your rejection of Him is outrageous and prideful. So we all have pride and we all need the blood of christ to cure us of it.

[Redbeard The Pink]

You view of books are simplistic not all books are about the same thing so depending on what the book is about determines you view on the author. Your view of the Bible is also simplistic and your understanding of how God communicates is flawed. The Bible is full of stories reflecting God's glory and our depravity. Since you reject this truth you hate God. 

So despite all the suffering and death, he really does still love us, and when he does those things we actually deserve them...it's not his fault...he just gets so angry...


Your faith is now practically indistinguishable from battered woman syndrome. Good job.


The Bible is about a monster that kills droves of people and animals, and his name is Yahweh.

Where did you first encounter the Golden Rule?

That's not relevant at all, and it was too young for me to remember. The oldest known example of the rule itself appears in the story of The Eloquent Peasant, an ancient Egyptian tale that predates Leviticus 19:18 by a good margin. It also appears in the philosophies and religions of ancient cultures the world over, including India, China, Greece, etc., and in virtually none of those cases is that because of contact with the Jewish god. The Golden Rule is a human cooperative principle that likely formed before we even had language to describe it or write it down.

Also your rendition of the Golden rule that you now ascribe to, If I am remembering correctly, is a negative version. Don't do to people that you wouldn't want them to do to you. So this just means don't do avoid certain behaviors that from your point of view would be harmful. The Golden Rule goes further and tells you to act on that person's behalf. To humble yourself and move towards a person for his or her good.

The Golden Rule, as I understand it, is "treat others the way you want to be treated." That covers things you don't want people to do, and things you would want them to do (like help you if you're hungry, for instance). No part of that demands the presence of a god, nor does it necessitate that the beings involved possess any "intrinsic worth," whatever that is. 

Your motivations on calling something evil is simplistic and narrow. You don't understand the fullness of what is evil because you don't understand the fullness of what suffering is and what it is for. You don't know what is good for a person in the long run. You are only using your limited understanding of how you feel and how people say that a things should be. You don't know everything so you can't fully understand suffering. You don't full understand enjoying a thing so you can't see how this too can cause suffering and pain. You don't accept that there is purity so you can't see how certain things will corrupt a person. Since, you don't think people can be pure then you don't see that impurity must be removed therefore you leave people in their pain and suffering. You can only judge by what you see not by what actually is. You lack knowledge, wisdom, and understanding to rightly apply the Golden Rule d and your assertion that you have and do is arrogant. 

Wow. That's a lot of "you" language, Shakira.


My definition of evil has nothing to do with the supernatural, and that makes it inherently more useful than yours. To me, evil is nothing more than a word that describes profound (even deliberate) immorality and malevolence.


I define morality as that course of action which promotes the greatest possible well-being and/or reduces unnecessary harm, and I define immorality as that which needlessly/selfishly detracts from well-being and/or creates unnecessary harm. That's really all there is to it. Evil is an extreme and/or deliberate version of immorality. If you want to posit that evil is more than that, I will once again need to see some evidence for that assertion.

You again have a narrow minded view and hold prejudice views on past cultures. You believe that because you were born at a certain time that you are now so morally and socially advanced that you can understand the nuances and needs of a person throughout time... You have no control over the time you were born in but you pride yourself with your moral superiority? You are blind to your moral weakness and to this prejudice. This again is arrogant.

My moral superiority is not a point of pride, but of objective fact. I live in a time that is demonstrably less violent and criminal than ages past, and that trend is directly proportional to the global decline of religion and the continued advances of science and secularism.

As for gays. God would be right if he killed all of humankind, but He move towards all of His enemies in a loving way.

Except for Egypt, Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's wife, Satan and his rebels, the whole of antediluvian humanity, that one fig tree that one time...shit, who else?


Yeah, no, your god is a dick. If he can behave that way and still tell us not to kill people, then his commands are arbitrary and hypocritical and have nothing to do with morality.

God says that pride is an abomination and I have struggled with this for the majority of life. This is a condemnation just like that person who participates in any sexual sin. Instead of just sending me to Hell Jesus died on the cross for my sins and theirs. There is no one on the face of the planet that has any moral high ground. There is no one who doesn't deserve God's condemnation. You view your sin so lightly that you have blinded yourself to all the evil that is around.

Sin (offense against god) is not real because gods are not real.


Anyone who would not condemn someone to infinite punishment for finite crimes has the moral high ground when dealing with your god character.

You also miss a great deal of pain and suffering and the ones that you do you can only cover up with platitudes and behavior modification. Your narrow view of what is actually happening with the human soul is lacking.

Why, because humans lack souls?

This  is proven by the fact that you don't believe it exist. Your viewpoint will only keep people enslaved to their pain and suffering not free them from it. God not only can free them from their sin enslavement but also from suffering. Not in this life but in the next.

Until you can prove the existence of souls, your god, and this afterlife, your claim is not only asinine but also insidious. It is the very worst kind of fraud, and you should be ashamed of yourself for propagating it.

Also He doesn't give people platitudes He uses His own body to heal their pain. He doesn't give them lies about how they are but names their sin then gives them a few identity through His love and grace. 

The entire Bible is one large, poorly-contrived lie. It's honestly kind of embarrassing that I believed it for so long.

Don't hide behind insults and falsehoods you know exactly what you need saving from you know that your actions will lead to destruction. God is purifying the world and if you choose to hang onto your sin He will remove you. Yet, in His grace He moves towards you and will walk you

I sincerely have no reason to believe that Hell exists. I know your claim is that it does, but I don't "know" that I'm going to end up in Hell because as far as I'm concerned, there is no such place. There is no more reason to believe in Hell than there is to believe in the god that supposedly created it, and until I have a really good reason to believe it, I'm just not going to.

[drfuzzy]

---

Wow, was this a drunk post?  There is a lot of fragmentation and the grammar is pretty odd in places.  
It's also a HUGE ad hominem attack.  How DARE you tell anyone that you have never met that they "don't understand" something over and over and over and over and . . . yawn . . . JesusChrist wanking off on a cracker, what a BITCH.  Redbeard has treated YOU with understanding and gentleness and patience, over and over, and all you do is insult him.  And you accuse HIM of being narrow-minded, prejudiced, and arrogant??
Wow.  I have never seen such a HUGE example of the pot calling the kettle black.  Just Wow.  With every post you become more and more of a poster child for how your stupid death cult and your evil book and your imaginary friend turns human beings into assholes.
     

---

---

 Yep, I am bad at grammar, spelling and communication but I am working on it. 

To use your standard of right living what give you the right to correct my behavior? Are you attacking me? Are you saying that the way I am dealing with His is wrong and arrogant? If you believe that this kind of behavior is reprehensible then why are you behaving in the same way you so vehemently condemn?  

If you can get passed all of my incorrect grammar did you read why I called him arrogant and prejudice? Have you read my other post where I never claim I am better, but that I have the same sin nature as everyone else?

---

 
If you refuse to be corrected then you are rejecting knowledge.

---

Don't let your pride keep you from learning the truth about yourself. God is the only one who can awaken you to your own sin to your own pride and prejudice. If you pretend to be above all of that you are lying to yourself because we all struggle with pride and prejudices. God is the only one who is pure and holy and your rejection of Him is outrageous and prideful. So we all have pride and we all need the blood of christ to cure us of it.

---

You have a point. I should probably take Redbeard's high road and refuse to return your judgments and insults with like behavior.  It is sometimes difficult to turn the other cheek when a person's behavior is constantly vile, like yours.

I don't believe that god exists.  I have most of the wholly babble memorized. Slinging verses my way is a waste of time. Judging me as prideful, prejudiced, deluded and arrogant does not provide proof of god's existence.  Insults are counter-productive, they drive people away.  

And that's why I insulted you.  I hope you go away.  You haven't proven a single sentence in all of your posts. You just keep repeating the same stupid drivel when faced with an intelligent and gentle debater.  And then you attack his intellect and character, using your silly book and your imaginary friend to bash someone else just to make yourself feel superior.  

You know what?  You're so good at this witnessing thing, we should hire you.  You could be the best atheist creator on the planet!

[Redbeard The Pink]

---

 Yep, I am bad at grammar, spelling and communication but I am working on it. 

To use your standard of right living what give you the right to correct my behavior? Are you attacking me? Are you saying that the way I am dealing with His is wrong and arrogant? If you believe that this kind of behavior is reprehensible then why are you behaving in the same way you so vehemently condemn?  

If you can get passed all of my incorrect grammar did you read why I called him arrogant and prejudice? Have you read my other post where I never claim I am better, but that I have the same sin nature as everyone else?

---

 
If you refuse to be corrected then you are rejecting knowledge.

---

Don't let your pride keep you from learning the truth about yourself. God is the only one who can awaken you to your own sin to your own pride and prejudice. If you pretend to be above all of that you are lying to yourself because we all struggle with pride and prejudices. God is the only one who is pure and holy and your rejection of Him is outrageous and prideful. So we all have pride and we all need the blood of christ to cure us of it.

---

You have a point. I should probably take Redbeard's high road and refuse to return your judgments and insults with like behavior.  It is sometimes difficult to turn the other cheek when a person's behavior is constantly vile, like yours.

I don't believe that god exists.  I have most of the wholly babble memorized. Slinging verses my way is a waste of time. Judging me as prideful, prejudiced, deluded and arrogant does not provide proof of god's existence.  Insults are counter-productive, they drive people away.  

And that's why I insulted you.  I hope you go away.  You haven't proven a single sentence in all of your posts. You just keep repeating the same stupid drivel when faced with an intelligent and gentle debater.  And then you attack his intellect and character, using your silly book and your imaginary friend to bash someone else just to make yourself feel superior.  

You know what?  You're so good at this witnessing thing, we should hire you.  You could be the best atheist creator on the planet!

To be fair, I have been a little insulting/profane toward Raquanza here at various times. That's probably decreased somewhat because I've grown as a person and as an atheist in the months and months that this thread has been slogging on for, but I don't think it ever totally stopped. I do not gladly suffer fools. Never have.