The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Salacious B. Crumb]

Again if there is only subjective morality then there is no true right or wrong.  In your wold view there is just stuff. So some stuff doing things to other stuff can't be right or wrong because it is just stuff. No one is going out and claiming that bricks are morally wrong but we know that there is a way that we aught to behave because we are not just stuff. We have logic, thought, consciousness and that can not come from in animate things. It must come from a being that is also conscious being who thinks logically and has a moral code.

I’m not going to repeat myself again. Please listen, and absorb this, and don’t tell me again, that I just see people as stuff. We basically all have morality, and it’s subjective. The “some stuff doing things to other stuff can’t be right or wrong because it’s stuff.” is dishonest. I’m sure we can agree on many things that are moral, I don’t need a god to figure out that hurting people is wrong. I know how it feels to be hurt, so, in turn, I don’t to do that to others. It’s like the golden rule. Most people, don’t want to be treated like garbage, so, the best way to not be treated like garbage, is to treat others well, and in return, most of the time, you get treated well in return. If not, you do your best to avoid that person. Also, you keep making arguments from ignorance. Read up on some things from scientific experiments of life coming from non-life. Then read up  on how this planet was ruled by bacteria for billions of years, and then how life slowly evolved into more and more intelligent and complex life. Check out the Miller/Urey Experiment, that’s a good start. I can understand why people believe in a prime mover, but most other things are well understood, and people don’t want to take the time to read it, because they think their holy book has all the answers.

We embody the very image of God, who you are suppressing the truth of. We instinctively know what aught to do because He has put that in all of us.

Nice try, but if there’s a god, he’s the one suppressing himself from everyone. No, we don’t know, because not everyone was raised the way you were. This truth you speak of, is practiced by 30 some percent of the world. I guess everyone is doomed. You know, the muslims think the same way as you. The 30 some percent of them in the world, think that allah has instilled this truth within them. I’m sure you think they are corrupted, and I’m sure they think the same about you. Which made-up book, written by man, is the truth? Of course, you claim yours, and others claims theirs. If one of these books was the word of god, there would be no debate. If, we all ‘knew’, as you claim, this truth within us, and if god had actually put it there, there would be no debate! How come hundreds of millions of people on this planet will never know about jesus or the bible? Was that god’s stupendous plan to get everyone to know that jesus is savior of the world? God’s word doesn’t reach everyone on the planet, and is still the true word of god. Give me a break. Your god is psycho or very incompetent.

Your world view's morals are all based on opinion and not reality. You judgment has no true foundation on which to judge what is right and wrong so you are just comeing to arbitrary conclusion
You speak of massive leaps of faith but your world view can't account for logic, knowledge, uniformity, or consciousness by which to judge wither my faith is anything.
Also like I have said before I know Jesus. I speak to Him everyday. I don't believe in Him because of the Bible but I believe the Bible because of Him.

No, my opinions are based on reality, not fantasy. My judgment has foundations in reality, yours are based on your belief that whatever is in the bible, is true, not matter if it’s false, evil, or extremely farfetched. That is a horrible way to live a life, thinking you know everything because you were raised with the bible. That doesn’t make you objectively right, because you were taught that this book was the one true book. That doesn’t make it true. Many others are brought up with other books claimed to be the truth, and to you, I’m sure they’re not. Why? Because you were raised that way. You are incapable of thinking for yourself; you don’t know how to think without that book of yours. Maybe, actually try to look at the bible, the way you would look at the koran. That would actually be a more honest approach of testing what you actually believe. You claim to talk to jesus every day, and claim you believe the bible because jesus talks to you, and not the other way around. Then, why doesn’t jesus do that with everyone on the planet? Why not visit every single person on the planet, and tell them the exact same thing? He obviously doesn’t do that, as you claim, because if that did happen, everyone would drop what they believed, and follow jesus. Maybe, send jesus my way, and if he doesn’t come, he either doesn’t care about me, or you’re just delusional.

I can make a judgment on those two lines of scripture and I could explain it to you  because I have a standard that stands outside of myself. You could use your subjective morals to judge my statement. Then who would be right? If we used your wold view no one. If we use may standard of right and wrong we could compare it to the absolute truth and make a judgment from that.

Yeah, still waiting on that interpretation, and how you feel about it. I could use my subjective morals to judge what you say, you are correct. I think you are withholding your opinion, because you know deep down, that it is immoral beyond imagination, but, because of your brainwashing, you are forced to believe in that wickedness, as if it was something good, because you were taught that god is always right and always good. Then who would be right?..you ask. No one would be right. I’d claim you’re sick in the head for believing that it’s ok to beat slaves, and you’d say, “No, it’s perfectly ok, because god said so.” They’d both be subjective opinions. I’d be entitled mine, and you’d be entitled to yours. Although, it truly isn’t yours, it’s the book you were brainwashed into to accept as truth no matter what. Let me give you a tip, it’s a good idea to question and be skeptical of things. It’s good not to believe everything you hear, and strongly question everything. That’s why science is the best thing we have, when it comes to what is true or not. I can’t claim absolute truth on science, but testing hypotheses over and over again trying to prove them false with everything you possibly can, allows you to figure out what is true and what is not in this reality. You should be putting that same method to the test with the bible. You should think to yourself, “HHMMMM, do I have a reason to believe that Samson killed 1,000 men with a donkey’s jawbone? or does this sound like a made-up story? Did Jonah spend 3 days in a whale? Or does that story sound made-up?” Do that for you own good. If you were raised believing in The Vedas, don’t you think it would be a good idea to question it? I’m sure you’d say, Yes. Do the same for the bible, they’re all books written by men.

[Rekeisha]

You have not accounted for knowledge, logic, or consciousness you have just stated that we are able to use them. I am asking with your world-view, which says we are just the byproducts of chaos, how do you account for uniformity or the ability for conscious and coherent thought? How can you reason at all? When have you ever observed consciousness coming from non-consciousness?

You are just judging God by arbitrary means because your system of morals, as you have already stated, are subjective to you. Your judgment on Him has no authority.

Evil is a corruption of good. A good action has to exist first for there to be a bad action. Lying can not exist before the truth because reality must exist before someone can speak a falsity about it. So God is good and has never changed and there is no mixture in Him. He is pure and good. Since the world has become corrupted by our sin he through the cross has sought a way to purify us so that we can have a relationship with Him. He must judge sin because as I stated before He is pure and good. Yet he is loving and wishes that we would all come into a relationship with Him.

So this is how Jesus sacrificed, because I used to have the same question. He being the one who made all thing and is above all things made himself the the lowest. He didn't come to the earth as a rich man but poor. He grew up in a limited and imperfect human body. He allowed His creation to attack Him, to betray Him, and murder Him all so that He could take your sin and my sin upon Himself. And this great mystery that I don't understand, He was separated form God the Father because He became a substitute for us. He was always in perfect relationship with the Father but he took the full force of the wrath of God so that we wouldn't have to. He didn't do this through His power but through the power of His the Holy Spirit.

You only assume that you can live your life without Him. He keeps the universe in uniformity so the fact that you can trust certain practices to work and keep you alive is all due to God.

Is it really arbitrary to say slavery is bad? That human sacrifice is bad? That rape is always wrong? That killing groups of people for holding beliefs that don't endanger your group is bad? That killing an innocent person to pay for the crimes of the guilty is bad? That punishing someone infinitely for finite crimes is bad? You're trying to say that all these things are fine, at least some of the time, because you read about it in a book, and you accuse me of having arbitrary reasons for disagreeing. This is why I'm not sure why I'm even still posting in this thread anymore. Your views are so ridiculous that nothing I say is going to penetrate.

If god really wanted to send someone down to change the world for the better, he should have been born into royalty. Then he could have run a country in a good way, influenced other leaders of the world through diplomacy, and brought people closer to what goodness is. Instead he grew up a poor guy, spent ten years talking to people in a small area, and his attempts to disrupt the status quo were met with gruesome execution. Instead of sending himself down to die, he should have sent himself down to lift others up. It was a poor job, and not the first time he did a poor job.

I'm done. I don't usually get this rude with people on the internet, but I'm frustrated and exhausted with this. I'm sorry. I have nothing else to say.

My world-view doesn't see sin as arbitrary because I have a truth that is outside of myself that I can judge both my actions and other to see wither they are right or wrong. You on the other hand you claim that there are only subjective morals. So your anger can be your own but you can't make a truth claim about these things being bad because your world-view can't give any concrete moral reasons because they are only subjective. Your anger towards my statement shows me that you instinctively know the truth. It has nothing to do with your feelings or your opinion on the matter. People are imbued with a sacred nature and to see someone destroyed goes against that nature. You and everyone else are worth more than what you claim and your sin cost you more than you know.

[Rekeisha]

1) That relationship exists inside your head. It is not something you can demonstrate for peer review, so it is not evidence.

2) No. When you were too young to read, your parents/church teachers told you about the bible, and convinced you that you would always be able to believe everything it says. They made this easier by presenting only "kid-friendly" versions of these stories that you were unlikely to question or be offended by.

Show me evidence of your claims

The universe and the various systems that comprise it are in a constantly-shifting equilibrium of order and disorder, and this order comes about from the fact that matter is acted on by universal forces with consistency, and these natural processes create systems that possess what humans define as "order" (which generally just means that they tend to move in patterned, consistent, predictable ways).

how in your world-view did this come about?

No. Stop with the straw-men already. I never said right and wrong are not part of reality. I said they are not dictated by objective reality. Right and wrong are part of reality, they're just not part of nature. They are human concepts created to categorize things that humans observe into things they like and things they don't like. I can absolutely make a judgement based on my personal morality, but I'm also aware of the fact that my judgement is exactly that: mine. There just happen to be various moral principles that many humans tend to agree on (probably owed to our evolutionary tendency toward cooperation), so there are cases where humans collectively get together and establish mutual moral agreements amongst a culture. This is where right and wrong comes from for everyone. You think it comes from god and your bible because you do not understand this process.

How do you describe reality? You say your morals are only your judgments, which are in your head. So in reality there is more than just nature? So why is it difficult to believe in a supernatural being? Also you have claimed my relationship with Jesus is just in my head why would that make it not reality if your judgment and you thoughts are all just in your head.

I was a christian for 20+ years. Your Jedi mind tricks do not work on me. Jesus, Jehovah, the Holy Ghost...these are fictional characters...imaginary friends...they make you feel warm and fuzzy, but they give you nothing and do nothing for you.

by what means are you making this judgment?

[Redbeard The Pink]

My world-view doesn't see sin as arbitrary because I have a truth that is outside of myself that I can judge both my actions and other to see wither they are right or wrong. You on the other hand you claim that there are only subjective morals. So your anger can be your own but you can't make a truth claim about these things being bad because your world-view can't give any concrete moral reasons because they are only subjective. Your anger towards my statement shows me that you instinctively know the truth. It has nothing to do with your feelings or your opinion on the matter. People are imbued with a sacred nature and to see someone destroyed goes against that nature. You and everyone else are worth more than what you claim and your sin cost you more than you know.

I'm gonna try maybe one last time to get through to you, but you've been indoctrinated for a long time from the looks of it, so I doubt anything I could say would have any impact. Your arguments are sensationalist, wishy-washy regurgitations of a bunch of superstition, so you don't seem to have the critical thinking skills to really let this sink in, but nevertheless, here goes:


Try (and I mean, really, really try) to think of it this way: What if you found out for 100% certain that there is no god? I know this is going to be a difficult hypothetical for you, but seriously, try to picture this. Don't just say "I can't because I know there is." Don't cop out like that. Try this exercise. Pretend for a moment that there is no god.


So if you found out for 100% certain that there is no god, would you go out that day and start killing? Stealing? Molesting children? Remember, there's no god to stop you. You're not gonna get punished in hell, and an all-powerful being isn't going to see you do these things unless you get yourself caught. Would you do any of them?


If your answer is "Yeah, why would I not if there's no god?" then congratulations! Your morality is sourced by god. The only thing keeping you from being a danger to society is Jesus. How safe we all should feel.


If, on the other hand, your answer is "No, I wouldn't do those things even if I knew for certain god did not exist," then your morality must come from somewhere besides god.


Take me, for instance. I've been a christian most of my life. I only de-converted a few weeks ago. I do not believe any gods exist, and I hold this position of belief with 100% certainty until evidence proves otherwise. Since then, I've changed a lot of things about how I think and act, but you know what I haven't done? I haven't started stealing things. I haven't started cheating on my wife. I haven't started throwing babies in rivers. I haven't started raping or killing people. I haven't started being mean to animals. Do you know why? I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with "because that shit is horrible and I wouldn't want to do it to anyone."


I do not need your toddler of a god to tell me what right and wrong is. I know what it means to experience suffering. I know how I feel about people when they do things that make me suffer. I have an understanding that if I want to be treated well, I have to treat others the same way. I recognize that humans have happier, healthier lives when they cooperate and treat each other with kindness. I am able to sustain my existence without having to take from others or make them suffer. I have all of these reasons and more to act in a humane and ethical fashion.


Christians, on the other hand, do not have morality, but legalism. On some level I still think most of them have subjective morality, whether they realize it or not, but by their claims, they do not have morals. They have laws. Christians make decisions based on a written list of rules (sort of) with the belief that doing the right thing will get them into heaven, doing the wrong thing will get them into hell, and that the world might end soon. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE to make an altruistic, moral decision with knowledge of such rewards and penalties hanging over one's head. As such, the christian version of "morality" boils down to either fear or greed. Take your pick.

[Rekeisha]

I’m not going to repeat myself again. Please listen, and absorb this, and don’t tell me again, that I just see people as stuff. We basically all have morality, and it’s subjective. The “some stuff doing things to other stuff can’t be right or wrong because it’s stuff.” is dishonest. I’m sure we can agree on many things that are moral, I don’t need a god to figure out that hurting people is wrong. I know how it feels to be hurt, so, in turn, I don’t to do that to others. It’s like the golden rule. Most people, don’t want to be treated like garbage, so, the best way to not be treated like garbage, is to treat others well, and in return, most of the time, you get treated well in return. If not, you do your best to avoid that person. Also, you keep making arguments from ignorance. Read up on some things from scientific experiments of life coming from non-life. Then read up  on how this planet was ruled by bacteria for billions of years, and then how life slowly evolved into more and more intelligent and complex life. Check out the Miller/Urey Experiment, that’s a good start. I can understand why people believe in a prime mover, but most other things are well understood, and people don’t want to take the time to read it, because they think their holy book has all the answers.

You act like morals are flavors. Yes we may be able to agree on what food we think is tasty but that won't make me right or wrong about the food we eat. Now you know that morals are not the same. There is a way we aught to live and it isn't a subjective matter.  Yet, you hold to the world-view that morals are subjective so you put them on the same level as flavor of food. You can't call for human rights because then you would be pushing your subjective morals onto someone else. If there is an absolute standard of what right and wrong are then you have a bases on which to judge the goings on in the world.

Also if we are just evolved form bacteria how did morals come from the mutation of dna?

No, my opinions are based on reality, not fantasy. My judgment has foundations in reality, yours are based on your belief that whatever is in the bible, is true, not matter if it’s false, evil, or extremely farfetched. That is a horrible way to live a life, thinking you know everything because you were raised with the bible. That doesn’t make you objectively right, because you were taught that this book was the one true book. That doesn’t make it true. Many others are brought up with other books claimed to be the truth, and to you, I’m sure they’re not. Why? Because you were raised that way. You are incapable of thinking for yourself; you don’t know how to think without that book of yours. Maybe, actually try to look at the bible, the way you would look at the koran. That would actually be a more honest approach of testing what you actually believe. You claim to talk to jesus every day, and claim you believe the bible because jesus talks to you, and not the other way around. Then, why doesn’t jesus do that with everyone on the planet? Why not visit every single person on the planet, and tell them the exact same thing? He obviously doesn’t do that, as you claim, because if that did happen, everyone would drop what they believed, and follow jesus. Maybe, send jesus my way, and if he doesn’t come, he either doesn’t care about me, or you’re just delusional.

What do you know about my life and how I was raised? How do you know how I live? Did I say that I was objectively right because I was taught it in a book. Did I say that it is the one true book?
How do you know I am incapable of thinking for myself?.
You are making a lot of judgments about my life, where are you coming up with these ideas? Are they only subjective to you and if they are why are pushing your subjective morals upon your idea of the way I live my life?

Yeah, still waiting on that interpretation, and how you feel about it. I could use my subjective morals to judge what you say, you are correct. I think you are withholding your opinion, because you know deep down, that it is immoral beyond imagination, but, because of your brainwashing, you are forced to believe in that wickedness, as if it was something good, because you were taught that god is always right and always good. Then who would be right?..you ask. No one would be right. I’d claim you’re sick in the head for believing that it’s ok to beat slaves, and you’d say, “No, it’s perfectly ok, because god said so.” They’d both be subjective opinions. I’d be entitled mine, and you’d be entitled to yours. Although, it truly isn’t yours, it’s the book you were brainwashed into to accept as truth no matter what. Let me give you a tip, it’s a good idea to question and be skeptical of things. It’s good not to believe everything you hear, and strongly question everything. That’s why science is the best thing we have, when it comes to what is true or not. I can’t claim absolute truth on science, but testing hypotheses over and over again trying to prove them false with everything you possibly can, allows you to figure out what is true and what is not in this reality. You should be putting that same method to the test with the bible. You should think to yourself, “HHMMMM, do I have a reason to believe that Samson killed 1,000 men with a donkey’s jawbone? or does this sound like a made-up story? Did Jonah spend 3 days in a whale? Or does that story sound made-up?” Do that for you own good. If you were raised believing in The Vedas, don’t you think it would be a good idea to question it? I’m sure you’d say, Yes. Do the same for the bible, they’re all books written by men.

You can't use your subjective judgment to see if I am correct you could only give me your opinion on my morals. In your world-view your morals are your morals and my moral are my morals and you don't have any claim on my morals and what I think is morally correct. If there was a standard by which to judge both or our morals then we could see if either are correct.

You are making an assumption on what I would say about the exodus verse.

Are you skeptical of your thinking? Are you skeptical of being skeptical? Do you strongly question wither there are only subjective morals? Do you strongly question that there is no God?
Do you strongly question wither you are a human? Do you strongly question that the reality you are in is real?

[The Grand Nudger]

You're a moron, nothing stops person a from thinking that their subjective morality is superior to person b's, and vv. Further, nothing stops either person a or person b from being right about the superiority of their subjective moral system.  You and Pink are, right this very moment, having a discussion which you have just claimed is impossible in his worldview...which is fucking ridiculous. We -can- use our subjective opinions to determine whether someone is correct (ourselves included). If we could not.....you wouldn't be having this conversation.....it would be impossible. I'm so sick of people claiming that something that is happening right in front of them...that they're participating in....would be possible or impossible based on a fucking worldview that they're likely ignorant -of-.......

sigh

[Salacious B. Crumb]

You are ridiculously dense Rekeisha. I'm not repeating myself 4 times in a row. Yes, you are claiming there is objective morality. Yes, you say that that's the one true book, or do you not? You said to open myself to jesus, and to the bible. You don't claim to believe them, you try to shove them down people's throats on here. My morality isn't morality, according to you, because it's not your flavor of morality. Are you open to the koran being the one true book? Are you saying you're open to the teachings of muhammad, and telling me to research the koran, and search what makes the most sense to me? NO, you are trying to shove your bullshit down people's throats, while ignoring everything we're saying. You keep lying about me not being able to have a morality, and that I view the world as just stuff (meaning: I view people as inanimate objects and I could treat them the way I'd treat a hammer, and it wouldn't matter to me). I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, regarding you had intelligence. I had to assume that you were raised a christian, and didn't find the bible at age 17, and say, "Wow, god created the world in 7 days, Wow, this must be the word of god." You still ignore the slavery question. You are dishonest as hell. You are morally bankrupt. Yes, I can hold that view, because I have a brain in my head. I'm allowed to think slavery is wrong. You are not, apparently. I'd give you a suggestion to research all religions, and look at them objectively, and compare them with what we know about the world, but I know you won't, so enjoy your book of fairy tales. Can any theist on here carry a conversation on with an atheist rationally and honestly?

[IATIA]

... and look at them objectively ...

You do know whom you are addressing? Objective means "morality delivered by the god of the bible", other than that, the word and concept is incomprehensible else they would no longer be christians.

[Rekeisha]

You're a moron, nothing stops person a from thinking that their subjective morality is superior to person b's, and vv. Further, nothing stops either person a or person b from being right about the superiority of their subjective moral system.  You and Pink are, right this very moment, having a discussion which you have just claimed is impossible in his worldview...which is fucking ridiculous. We -can- use our subjective opinions to determine whether someone is correct (ourselves included). If we could not.....you wouldn't be having this conversation.....it would be impossible. I'm so sick of people claiming that something that is happening right in front of them...that they're participating in....would be possible or impossible based on a fucking worldview that they're likely ignorant -of-.......

sigh

How would you define reality?

[The Grand Nudger]

I wouldn't, for you. Is that where we're headed next? I remind you that you claimed something happening at that very moment was impossible and all of a sudden reality needs re-defining? Give it a rest, you're spent.