Ill pretend to be a religious person

[Rwandrall]

What the hell is an unconditional atheist?

sorry i translated a french expression that probably doesnt apply to english...i meant i am a serious athiest so the answers here are not what i think but what a religious person would say

---

Yes there is a slight difference of testimonies in the Gospel

No. There are major fucking contradictions. Your fairy tale writers cannot even agree on his last words or how many people saw the so-called "empty tomb."

first, do you have proof for your allegations ? also, many interpret the Word of God differently. However these few small details are nothing compared to the fact that all Gospels give the same story, with his miracles, his rebirth, his life and his message of peace.

[Minimalist]

Sure. All you have to do is read your silly book.

Matthew 27:46

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark 15:34

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Luke 23:46

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 19:30

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Regular little chatterbox but there cannot be THREE last words and then he drops dead. Something is fucked up.

Same goes for the empty tomb horseshit. Different people show up and see different things and report (or not) what they saw to different people. Pure fiction.

All you have to do is read your silly books without your holy blinders on.

[Rwandrall]

Sure. All you have to do is read your silly book.

Matthew 27:46

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark 15:34

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" - which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Luke 23:46

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 19:30

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Regular little chatterbox but there cannot be THREE last words and then he drops dead. Something is fucked up.

Same goes for the empty tomb horseshit. Different people show up and see different things and report (or not) what they saw to different people. Pure fiction.

All you have to do is read your silly books without your holy blinders on.

The first two verses are never said to be at his time of death precisely, so they are not relevant. Also, the two other say pretty much the same thing, that he accepts that his time on earth is over.

(athiest talking)
I think Jesus was probably a guru that actually thought he was the son of God and thought he would be saved on the Cross, which is why he cried out "why have you forsaken me".
And he didnt resurect, imo his disciples probably snatched his body during the night and someone else said he was Jesus, explaining why none of the Apostles recognized him at first.

[Minimalist]

45From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[c] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[d]

47When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."

48Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

Matthew never mentions him speaking another word.

33At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[c]

35When some of those standing near heard this, they said, "Listen, he's calling Elijah."

36One man ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to take him down," he said.

37With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

Neither does "Mark" from whom Matthew copied.

If you want to suggest that jesus' last words were


"AHHHHHH FUCKKKKKKKKKKKK!" I could go with that!

[Rwandrall]

45From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[c] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[d]

47When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."

48Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."

50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

Matthew never mentions him speaking another word.

33At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[c]

35When some of those standing near heard this, they said, "Listen, he's calling Elijah."

36One man ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to take him down," he said.

37With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

Neither does "Mark" from whom Matthew copied.

If you want to suggest that jesus' last words were


"AHHHHHH FUCKKKKKKKKKKKK!" I could go with that!

Nowhere does it say what he said was everything he said. his "loud cry" could have been that "it is finished" that was in another Gospel...maybe he said a few things before dying but the Gospels only relate what they believe is the most important one

[Minimalist]

That is exactly what these two liars say.

Luke 23:46

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 19:30

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

You cannot reconcile these various bullshit stories without introducing facts which are not in evidence as the lawyers say. That's because these documents are your only evidence, and as evidence goes they are pretty piss poor.


It's like a cop interviewing witnesses to a hit and run and one guy says "it was a blue car" and another guy says "it was a green car."

The cop can conclude that

1. The vehicle was Blue
2. The vehicle was Green
3. These two assholes don't know what they saw.

He could not conclude that the car was blue AND green which is what you are trying to do.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I think Jesus was probably a guru that actually thought he was the son of God

Probably? I don't think so. Logically possible, yes. It's also logically possible a space ship will land in the car park at my local mall at 2 pm today.

It's possible that during the reign of the emperor Tiberius,there was a wondering rabbi called something like Yeshua bar Yosef, with a handful of followers. This was a Jewish tradition which still exists amongst Hasidic Jews. It's also possible he was crucified for sedition. The Romans crucified thousands of Jews during the occupation of Judea.

It's possible Jesus claimed to be and was even accepted by some to be the Messiah.There have been many, even at least one rabbi in modern times. That would not have been a big deal with the Jews.The thing which would have gotten Jesus crucified is that traditionally the Messiah was a military as well as a spiritual leader. Had Jesus claimed to be the son of god,he would have been accused of blasphemy (a capital crime) by his own followers,all of whom were devout Jews


The collection of writings called 'The New Testament' are almost certainly myth. Gospel accounts contradict each other in many places. Some also show a stunning ignorance about Jewish custom and law,even an ignorance of the temple in Jerusalem. EG the alleged incident of Jesus chasing money lenders out of the temple is a howler.

The Epistles of the paranoid,misogynist fruitcake(s) Saul of Tarsus are beyond the pale on several levels.

It try not to argue with believers at all,one cannot use reason to confront beliefs in which reason has no part in forming or maintaining.

If you could reason with religious people there wouldn't be any (Greg House)

[Minimalist]

http://www.bartdehrman.com/

Based on years of scholarship, and just in time for Easter, Ehrman's most important work-to-date reveals, among its many findings:

* Only 8 of the 27 books of the New Testament were actually written by the authors to whom they're attributed. Others are likely forgeries.
* The gospels provide remarkably divergent portrayals of Jesus.
* The message of the Apostle Paul and the message of gospel writer Matthew are completely at
odds over the question of whether a follower of Jesus also had to observe the Jewish law.
* The Nicene Creed and the Trinity were constructs of the later church and are not found in the pages of the Bible.
* Traditional doctrines such as the suffering Messiah, the divinity of Christ, and the notion of heaven and hell are not based on the teachings of the historical Jesus.
* The commonly told story of Jesus -- his birth, death, and resurrection is actually a composite of four vastly different gospel narratives.

[Rwandrall]

http://www.bartdehrman.com/

Based on years of scholarship, and just in time for Easter, Ehrman's most important work-to-date reveals, among its many findings:

* Only 8 of the 27 books of the New Testament were actually written by the authors to whom they're attributed. Others are likely forgeries.
* The gospels provide remarkably divergent portrayals of Jesus.
* The message of the Apostle Paul and the message of gospel writer Matthew are completely at
odds over the question of whether a follower of Jesus also had to observe the Jewish law.
* The Nicene Creed and the Trinity were constructs of the later church and are not found in the pages of the Bible.
* Traditional doctrines such as the suffering Messiah, the divinity of Christ, and the notion of heaven and hell are not based on the teachings of the historical Jesus.
* The commonly told story of Jesus -- his birth, death, and resurrection is actually a composite of four vastly different gospel narratives.

These allegations are simply interpretations made by one man who, when he started researching the subject, was already hell-bent in discrediting the Gospel. Also, even the TEXT of the four gospel may differ a bit, its interpretation, its MEANING when studied under the prism of the Word of God and what he wants us to know, is simply without question.

(atheist speaking)
thats actually a very good argument, i had never heard it before and ill look into it

[Minimalist]

So typical of theists to try to personalize scholarship into "attacks against them and their silly god."

As Ehrman made clear in Misquoting Jesus, he is hardly the standard bearer. The fuck-ups in the so-called inerrant gospels have been known for hundreds of years. In truth, they were probably pretty obvious before that but you jesus-lovers killed anyone who mentioned them!

Ehrman's mission is to explain complex scholarly issues to laymen. When it comes to most fundie assholes this is a bit like explaining radar to a dog.