General argument for Islam.

[Mystic]

Err....

I give up. I hope your religion brings you happiness

Thank you. 

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This thread is specifically about the wisdom and proofs of what is known as Wilayah, and is the foundation of the religion.

I will make a thread about Salah (the connection/daily prayers) as well was the wisdom behind fasting and hajj. As for charity I think that needs no explanation.

As for Salah, it particularly stands out, and I will talk about the wisdom of it's form and the words stated in each one.

[Chas]

I think the main problem you guys have is that you don't accept praise as a proof of God's greatness and a proof of his divine favors.

That is just about the stupidest, least meaningful assertion here ever.

I think if you accept that, then all to the point of the Quranic wisdom can be accepted.

One would need an IQ of 60 or less to accept it.

As for the uniqueness of the Quranic wisdom and it's exalted nature, that again has to be perceived but I think if we accept all that to that point, it's manifest as well.

Peace 

Another virtually meaningless statement.

Please try again but make the statements rational.

[Surgenator]

@Mystic

Praise or worship is not proof for the existence of Xtian god.
Praise or worship is not proof for the existence of Shiva.
Praise or worship is not proof for the existence of Ra.
Praise or worship is not proof for the existence of Zues.
Hence, praise or worship is not proof for the existence of Allah.

[pocaracas]

You know what I see in all these? PEOPLE! People desiring control over other people. PEOPLE! Not gods, not a single god. Just PEOPLE! The ever power-hungry people of the world.

People are desiring to control people that's for sure. But would the most good people sit and watch while selfish people misguide the masses.  And who is more worthy to control us and have authority over us then God? What is more honorable, leaving us to selfish people or our own selves, or God giving us guidance from him and his authority and rope to cling to. Think about it.

Since when do "good" people want the responsibility of controlling a country, or even just a city?

A great part of the today's political problems lies exactly in the inadequacy of the politicians for their jobs. Most are lawyers, economists or accountants... not exactly what you'd call "good" people, huh? And you don't see anyone ousting them, do you?

As for a god having authority over us... we first need to establish that such a god exists in the first place, then we need that god to present his rules.
Somehow, religions have bypassed these first and second parts and gone right to "someone presents the rules as if they were handed by a god"... back to people! and, worse of all, they sell it as "someone presents the rules handed down directly by a god and you must accept them as they are from god's authority".

And, for some reason, these people managed to convince a lot of other people that this BS is actually praiseworthy.... you included! They've convinced people that it is good that only a few select individuals have real contact with the god of choice. And that is as it should be, huh? God needs to hide behind the few PEOPLE with whom he talks and send his messages, because... FUCK IT, god's shy and afraid of his creation, or something... I don't know... It makes no sense.

If you want God to contact you, then you have to be ready to be at his service, be his sincere servant. Otherwise, you will increase in injustice.

What?!! What sort of god requires my service? I'm a lowly human. He's a god.... he can do anything he wishes... what does he need from me?
There's nothing I could do to assist a god...

The Prophets came so we can have a close relationship to God, to see his glory, to trade looks with him, but it requires sincerity, and the first step is to be at peace with the guidance of God that has come to you.

And that is how you know that you've been convinced by people to do as those people claim (or claimed), without putting any thought into those people's motives... because you've been convinced that those people who first told the tale were "good"... and that's it.

Sorry for not buying into what people say about gods... I eagerly await a god to tell everyone what his rules are and how people are supposed to live in order to find him after death... until then, All I see is people at work.

[Mystic]

Good people want to see justice established and they know there are selfish evil people who don't care for justice and want to rule people. They want help the poor, help the oppressed, feed the hungry, and stop corruption. They wish to judge disputes with justice, appoint just people to judge affairs of people, etc.

As for the best of his servants, they are most aware of the wisdom and guidance and goodness, and want people to follow it. It's not that they want control or authority, that's not their desire, they rather wish to demonstrate the shinning path of God and establish his justice, and bring people from the darkness in the light. They see people following vice and falsehood, and wish for them to follow virtue and truth.

As for God, he is manifest through his light, and his light manifest the divine names and his grace. His guidance is the guidance, and just as we expect the best friends of God to share their wisdom, we can expect God to establish the truth with his words and provide a guidance from him.

God doesn't need your service but it's an injustice to yourself if you don't wish to serve him. We are linked to him and belong to him and he is worthy to be worshiped and served. Serving him honors us, but our service should be for his pleasure. He is not in need of us while we are in need of him.

You not wanting to serve him then why do you want him to speak to you? As the prayer shows, the veils of light can be penetrated, we can be thunderstruck by his majesty, and he can whisper to us secretly while we work for him openly. But you should want to work for him openly if you want him to whisper to you secretly.

[Chas]

Good people want to see justice established and they know there are selfish evil people who don't care for justice and want to rule people. They want help the poor, help the oppressed, feed the hungry, and stop corruption. They wish to judge disputes with justice, appoint just people to judge affairs of people, etc.

Then they should promote secular humanism.

As for the best of his servants, they are most aware of the wisdom and guidance and goodness, and want people to follow it. It's not that they want control or authority, that's not their desire, they rather wish to demonstrate the shinning path of God and establish his justice, and bring people from the darkness in the light.  They see people following vice and falsehood, and wish for them to follow virtue and truth.

People are free to believe whatever woo they want; they can't be allowed to rule others with woo.

As for God, he is manifest through his light, and his light manifest the divine names and his grace.  His guidance is the guidance, and just as we expect the best friends of God to share their wisdom, we can expect God to establish the truth with his words and provide a guidance from him.

Do you have recordings of God speaking?  Will you share them?

God doesn't need your service but it's an injustice to yourself if you don't wish to serve him. We are linked to him and belong to him and he is worthy to be worshiped and served. Serving him honors us, but our service should be for his pleasure.  He is not in need of us while we are in need of him.

I belong to me.  When you have some actual evidence of God, then we can negotiate the rest.

You not wanting to serve him then why do you want him to speak to you? As the prayer shows, the veils of light can be penetrated, we can be thunderstruck by his majesty, and he can whisper to us secretly while we work for him openly.  But you should want to work for him openly if you want him to whisper to you secretly.

There is nothing majestic about an imaginary friend.

[Mudhammam]

You were like a deist 6 months ago. WTF happened? Did you "reason" your way to these ideas? Did you have a mental breakdown and found this helpful in YOUR therapy? Fine, but stop pretending like we're supposed to just say, "Oh, okay, yes, I see, that makes perfect sense, thank you for that insight."

[Mystic]

Then they should promote secular humanism.

Why should human judgement be preferred over God's judgement, if majority of people accept God's judgement? Secular humanism only makes sense if there isn't a God.

People are free to believe whatever woo they want; they can't be allowed to rule others with woo.

So secular people can rule people by their opinion...but people can't rule people by values and laws they deemed revealed by God? Why not? Are these people suppose to rule but ignore what they think is truth?

Do you have recordings of God speaking?  Will you share them?

The words of God meant for others are only conveyed by Prophets.  However God can whisper to someone secretly, but they should keep what God tells them a secret and their relationship with God a secret. I'm not stating I have this relationship. I'm just stating people not conveying what God secret whispers to them doesn't mean people aren't being talked to by God.



 

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 Did you "reason" your way to these ideas? Did you have a mental breakdown and found this helpful in YOUR therapy? Fine, but stop pretending like we're supposed to just say, "Oh, okay, yes, I see, that makes perfect sense, thank you for that insight."

I reasoned my way to these ideas. I didn't have a mental breakdown. When I did have a mental break down about a year and half ago, I was a Deist.

[Cato]

You were like a deist 6 months ago. WTF happened? Did you "reason" your way to these ideas? Did you have a mental breakdown and found this helpful in YOUR therapy? Fine, but stop pretending like we're supposed to just say, "Oh, okay, yes, I see, that makes perfect sense, thank you for that insight."

I had the same thought. Barring an unfortunate accident resulting in severe head trauma, I have serious doubts that the person typing is the same one we have come to know as MK. For me it's not just the drastic shift in content, but the tone and tenor seem drastically different.

[pocaracas]

Good people want to see justice established and they know there are selfish evil people who don't care for justice and want to rule people. They want help the poor, help the oppressed, feed the hungry, and stop corruption. They wish to judge disputes with justice, appoint just people to judge affairs of people, etc.

Yes, they wish it... But seldom do they observe it.

As for the best of his servants, they are most aware of the wisdom and guidance and goodness, and want people to follow it. It's not that they want control or authority, that's not their desire, they rather wish to demonstrate the shinning path of God and establish his justice, and bring people from the darkness in the light.  They see people following vice and falsehood, and wish for them to follow virtue and truth.

"truth"... curious word... truth.
Whose truth? The prophets' truth? The priests' truth? The rulers' truth? The people's truth?

The Truth... can be different things, for different people, and yet remain true.
The true shining path of god as a tool for true control and authority and true justice.

For truth, I prefer scientific truth. It's the most unbiased truth we, mankind, have come up with.
And, as far as scientific truth can tell, no god features in this Universe.
Hence, no shining path of any god exists, hence the control and authority we see stemming from the claim of following the true path of god is... not true. It becomes a direct tool, by people, of control and authority over people.