Why don't we know the date Jesus rose up from the dead?

[Minimalist]

Oh, and Thor, for future reference you can find all of Josephus as well as Philo at Peter Kirby's marvelous site:

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/


The earlier reference to Philo on Pilate comes from: " On the Embassy to Gaius" in the 3d column.

[chatpilot]

Here is an interesting theory of my own Min regarding where Mark may have got his ideas from. In the book of Isaiah chapter 53 we are introduced to a suffering messiah which Christians take to be a prophecy regarding Christ and his crucifixion. It is my belief that the whole Christ story itself is plagiarized and culled mainly from the O.T. When I was a Christian I could not see this I basically told people that the O.T. was the prophecies of things to come and the N.T. the fulfillment of those things in the ministry and person of Jesus Christ. Note that the entire chapter regarding this suffering messiah is written in past tense which I find very interesting indeed.

[Thor]

You seem into this today, Thor, so let me offer you another little tidbit.

This excerpt is from Josephus, The Jewish War, Book VI, Chapter 5.3

Pay close attention to the words and actions of the Roman Procurator, Albinus, and to the lack of reply given by this "Jesus."

But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (23) began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

One wonders where "Mark" got his ideas from!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=NIV

Very interesting! I often run into believers who cite Josephus as a source for proving that "Jesus" really lived. I always point out that Josephus was born after "Jesus" supposedly died, so anything he writes about "Jesus" is, at best, hearsay. I've also read that many historians believe that Bishop Eusebius had the passages about Jesus inserted in Jospehus's writings sometime in the 4th century. From what I've read, they don't believe that the "Jesus" passages are in Josephus's style and they also don't flow with the rest of his narrative. Have you heard anything about this?

---

Oh, and Thor, for future reference you can find all of Josephus as well as Philo at Peter Kirby's marvelous site:

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/


The earlier reference to Philo on Pilate comes from: " On the Embassy to Gaius" in the 3d column.

Thanks for the reference! I'll definitely check it out. Knowledge is a good thing!

[Minimalist]

AS Bishop Warburton noted in the 1770's: the TF a "rank forgery, and a very stupid one, too."

Many 19th century scholars regarded Warburton as correct on the matter for a number of reasons but with the growth of protestant fundamentalism in the late 19th/early 20th century it became increasingly embarrassing for the fundies that their godboy was left out of the history books (probably the same motivation that Eusebius felt for inventing it in the first place.)

Even though it gives a virtual bullet-point presentation of 4th century xtian belief they decided that at least some part of it must be real. Again, if there had been some reference to the TF when Origen wrote in the 3d century then Origen would have to have been the stupidest bastard in history not to use it to clinch his argument in Contra Celsus. Instead, although he makes specific reference to Book XVIII of Antiquities of the Jews ( where the TF was later inserted!) he not only does not make any reference to it he goes on to say that Josephus did not know Christ.

Xtians will twist their scrotums into knots trying to get around this simple fact but the fact remains.

While there have been many treatments of the issue if you can find this:

"Eusebian Fabrication of the Testimonium" by Ken Olson

you'll be further enlightened.

---

Here is an interesting theory of my own Min regarding where Mark may have got his ideas from. In the book of Isaiah chapter 53 we are introduced to a suffering messiah which Christians take to be a prophecy regarding Christ and his crucifixion. It is my belief that the whole Christ story itself is plagiarized and culled mainly from the O.T. When I was a Christian I could not see this I basically told people that the O.T. was the prophecies of things to come and the N.T. the fulfillment of those things in the ministry and person of Jesus Christ. Note that the entire chapter regarding this suffering messiah is written in past tense which I find very interesting indeed.

If you haven't read Earl Doherty's "The Jesus Puzzle" C/P you might find it interesting. Especially the part where he discusses "Mark" as Jewish Midrash and then actually dissects a couple of pages of it with OT references.

A little murky in spots but definitely worth the read.

[chatpilot]

Thanks Min but I have read 'The Jesus Puzzle' it is a great read.

[Minimalist]

For some reason, C/P, your mention of Isaiah "53" reminded me of another discussion with a nutty fundie. He was rambling on about just that and I suggested that he should read the beginning of the discussion which is in "52." He insisted that each "chapter" was a separate story.

Shaking my head at such abject stupidity I asked him if he was not aware that these chapter and verse numberings were nothing more than a product of the Middle Ages.

He denied that and insisted that 'god knew what he was doing."

I asked him if Archbishop Langton was "god" and gave him a citation.

Oddly.....never heard from the dumb bastard again.



Maybe not so odd, huh?

[chatpilot]

That is funny Min he probably thought you were an agent of Satan lol. He obviously didn't know shit about the bible he claims belief in.

[Godscreated]

Jesus was crucified on April 3rd AD 33 and rose on April 5th AD 33.

[Minimalist]

Oh, look. The lunatic fringe puts in an appearance.

BTW, boy, where do you get that from?

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That is funny Min he probably thought you were an agent of Satan lol. He obviously didn't know shit about the bible he claims belief in.

A lot of them have that problem.

Fuckers think god wrote it or something!

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Fascinating stuff. I 've often wondered why Jesus' followers didn't record the dates of his arrest, trial and execution.

The topic brings out a personal hobby horse.; ancient historians. There was no such creature as we understand the term much before Gibbon.

I'm very wary of accepting any single ancient writer as prime source.EG Josesphus was a notorious Roman apologist and needs to be read with that in mind.

Ancient historians rarely even approach being objective recorders of events.Everything written had a political agenda :Eg Suetonius' 'Life Of Caligula' is a good example of scurrilous political propaganda,with just enough truth to make it credible. Julius Caesar's* superb chronicles are worse,with ' a considerable amount of embellishment and exaggeration'.



*Caesar single handedly invented the Germans and 'Germania' as a threat to Rome.