Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
April 19, 2015 at 10:59 am (This post was last modified: April 19, 2015 at 11:00 am by Mudhammam.)
Quote:The Quran being a miracle you have to study Arabic to know that. Obviously people who don't know Arabic cannot be expected to see the eloquence of Quran and it's miracle.
You forgot to add that apart from learning Arabic, you also have to suspend all critical and objective thought and be slightly prone to delusion.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
April 19, 2015 at 12:03 pm (This post was last modified: April 19, 2015 at 12:19 pm by Mystic.)
Veil 1.
Clarification from Ahlulbayt(as): From the 6th Imam, Imam Retha (as): “The Honorable the Exalted God gave distinction to the (prophetic) household over other people in the Wise Book.” Al-Ma’mun asked him, “Where is that in God’s Book?” Al-Retha (as) told him, “Indeed the Honorable the Exalted God says, ‘Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people. Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.’ In another place the Honorable the Exalted God says, ‘Or do they envy those people for what God hath given them of his bounty? So then We had already given the family of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great kingdom/authority.’ He then addressed this effect to the rest of the believers, so he said: O ye who believe Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those who possess the command/authority from you.’ This means those whom God has given them the Book and the Wisdom for which they are envied. Therefore, what is understood from the Honorable the Exalted God’s words, ‘Or do they envy the people for what God hath given them of his grace? So then We had already given the family of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great kingdom./authority’ This refers to obeying the Chosen Pure ones.”, so the authority/kingdom here refers to the obedience owed to them. Here are the verses leading to Ulil-Amr and one after that emphasizes to disbelief in the Taghut.
[4:51] Have you not seen those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They believe in the Jibt and Taghut and say of those who disbelieve: These are better guided in the path than those who believe. أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ لَعَنَهُمُ اللَّهُ ۖ وَمَنْ يَلْعَنِ اللَّهُ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لَهُ نَصِيرًا {52} [4:52] Those are they whom Allah has cursed, and whomever Allah curses you shall not find any helper for him. أَمْ لَهُمْ نَصِيبٌ مِنَ الْمُلْكِ فَإِذًا لَا يُؤْتُونَ النَّاسَ نَقِيرًا {53} [4:53] Or have they a share in the authority? But then they would not give to the people even the speck in the date stone. أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النَّاسَ عَلَىٰ مَا آتَاهُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ ۖ فَقَدْ آتَيْنَا آلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَآتَيْنَاهُمْ مُلْكًا عَظِيمًا {54} [4:54] Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? So indeed We have given to the family of Abraham, the Book and the wisdom, and We gave them a great authority. فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ آمَنَ بِهِ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ صَدَّ عَنْهُ ۚ وَكَفَىٰ بِجَهَنَّمَ سَعِيرًا {55} [4:55] So of them is he who believed in it, and of them is he who turned away from it, and hell is sufficient to burn. إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِآيَاتِنَا سَوْفَ نُصْلِيهِمْ نَارًا كُلَّمَا نَضِجَتْ جُلُودُهُمْ بَدَّلْنَاهُمْ جُلُودًا غَيْرَهَا لِيَذُوقُوا الْعَذَابَ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا {56} [4:56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our signs/proofs/guidance, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ سَنُدْخِلُهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِنْ تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۖ لَهُمْ فِيهَا أَزْوَاجٌ مُطَهَّرَةٌ ۖ وَنُدْخِلُهُمْ ظِلًّا ظَلِيلًا {57} [4:57] And (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, We will make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; they shall have therein pure mates, and We shall make them enter a dense shade. إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَأْمُرُكُمْ أَنْ تُؤَدُّوا الْأَمَانَاتِ إِلَىٰ أَهْلِهَا وَإِذَا حَكَمْتُمْ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ أَنْ تَحْكُمُوا بِالْعَدْلِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ نِعِمَّا يَعِظُكُمْ بِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ سَمِيعًا بَصِيرًا {58} [4:58] Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts to their owners and that when you judge between people you judge with justice; surely Allah admonishes you with what is excellent; surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing. يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا {59} [4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those who possess the command/authority from you; therefore if you dispute about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الَّذِينَ يَزْعُمُونَ أَنَّهُمْ آمَنُوا بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ يُرِيدُونَ أَنْ يَتَحَاكَمُوا إِلَى الطَّاغُوتِ وَقَدْ أُمِرُوا أَنْ يَكْفُرُوا بِهِ وَيُرِيدُ الشَّيْطَانُ أَنْ يُضِلَّهُمْ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا {60} [4:60] Have you not seen those who assert that they believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you? They desire to summon one another to the judgment of the Taghut, though they were commanded to deny him, and the Shaitan desires to lead them astray into a remote error.
If anyone sincerely reflects it can be seen a portion of the people of the book believed in the false unjust authority and said they are more guided then believers. Then it refers to the fact of whether they have share in authority. Then it states or is it that they envy a specific people for what God has given them out of his grace. This shows the believers they were talking about was particularly these people, and it's these people that they would not give anything to if they were the ones of true authority. It also then shows that these people are like the family of Abraham, who too been given the book, the wisdom, and a great authority, so that they are not justified in envying them, while accepting chosen ones in the past. The great authority was their link of authority to following that of God. Then it emphasizes that those who turned way from the great authority of the family of Ibrahim would be punished. Then it's emphasized those who disbelieve in signs/proofs/guidance of God would be punished and those who believe rewarded. After reminding to judge people by justice showing one of the dimensions of the authority, it states to Obey God showing the purpose of the great authority of the family of Abraham and then we are told to obey the Messenger and those who possess the the command/authority from us. Then we are told so/therefore if we dispute a thing refer it to God and the Messenger, showing the Ulil-Amr always command towards Quran and Sunnah as that was said to be part of obeying them. The false authority is then reminded after that, that some people say they believe in what has been revealed, but then go the judgement of the Taghut.
Now the Shia interpretation is clear. As the divine authority of the family of Abraham was emphasized, what was meant by 4:59 that was the divine authority of God in his chosen ones and pure ones. This is the obvious context if sincerely reflected about.
However the Sunni says this refers to all rulers and their appointed authorities, meaning even unjust rulers have authority and are to be obeyed. This is despite the emphasis on to disbelieve in the Taghut (False Unjust Authority) showing it's not about temporal power as instances of the Taghut have that authority, and this is despite the emphasis of the great authority of the family of Abraham, while some of them interpret that as worldly kingdom given to David or Sulaiman.
But such interpretation is obviously against rational, the flow of verses, and the majestic meaning. God's obedience was mention first to emphasis obeying the Ulil-Amr is obeying him, and they were put in the same obedience to the Messenger showing it's one type of
Authority. That and the flow of the verses before and after.
This is veil number 1. The meaning with reflection is clear, and the emphasis on the Taghut is to show what is meant is not temporal authority that even misguided unjust leaders can have but rather as we been commanded to disbelief in the Taghut, that authority has been negated.
The mention of the Jibt is also of significance showing the false misguiding authorities are product of the sorcery cast by dark forces upon the hearts of humanity, making them believe in their authority, hence emphasizing they believe in it, and here it has wisdom being put in, as people blind to the Ulil-Amr has no real explanation aside from the Jibt (sorcery) on the hearts by Satan and his forces. This being places where locks have been put, it's been reminded of, and the knots blown on the hearts, is of these instances, saying the Ulil-Amr are any rulers or their appointees.
Do you actually require anyone to participate in this...or can you handle it all by yourself Mystic?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(April 19, 2015 at 12:03 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Veil 1.
Clarification from Ahlulbayt(as): From the 6th Imam, Imam Retha (as): “The Honorable the Exalted God gave distinction to the (prophetic) household over other people in the Wise Book.” Al-Ma’mun asked him, “Where is that in God’s Book?” Al-Retha (as) told him, “Indeed the Honorable the Exalted God says, ‘Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people. Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.’ In another place the Honorable the Exalted God says, ‘Or do they envy those people for what God hath given them of his bounty? So then We had already given the family of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great kingdom/authority.’ He then addressed this effect to the rest of the believers, so he said: O ye who believe Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those who possess the command/authority from you.’ This means those whom God has given them the Book and the Wisdom for which they are envied. Therefore, what is understood from the Honorable the Exalted God’s words, ‘Or do they envy the people for what God hath given them of his grace? So then We had already given the family of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great kingdom./authority’ This refers to obeying the Chosen Pure ones.”, so the authority/kingdom here refers to the obedience owed to them. Here are the verses leading to Ulil-Amr and one after that emphasizes to disbelief in the Taghut.
[4:51] Have you not seen those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They believe in the Jibt and Taghut and say of those who disbelieve: These are better guided in the path than those who believe. أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ لَعَنَهُمُ اللَّهُ ۖ وَمَنْ يَلْعَنِ اللَّهُ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لَهُ نَصِيرًا {52} [4:52] Those are they whom Allah has cursed, and whomever Allah curses you shall not find any helper for him. أَمْ لَهُمْ نَصِيبٌ مِنَ الْمُلْكِ فَإِذًا لَا يُؤْتُونَ النَّاسَ نَقِيرًا {53} [4:53] Or have they a share in the authority? But then they would not give to the people even the speck in the date stone. أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النَّاسَ عَلَىٰ مَا آتَاهُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ ۖ فَقَدْ آتَيْنَا آلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَآتَيْنَاهُمْ مُلْكًا عَظِيمًا {54} [4:54] Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? So indeed We have given to the family of Abraham, the Book and the wisdom, and We gave them a great authority. فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ آمَنَ بِهِ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ صَدَّ عَنْهُ ۚ وَكَفَىٰ بِجَهَنَّمَ سَعِيرًا {55} [4:55] So of them is he who believed in it, and of them is he who turned away from it, and hell is sufficient to burn. إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بِآيَاتِنَا سَوْفَ نُصْلِيهِمْ نَارًا كُلَّمَا نَضِجَتْ جُلُودُهُمْ بَدَّلْنَاهُمْ جُلُودًا غَيْرَهَا لِيَذُوقُوا الْعَذَابَ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا {56} [4:56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our signs/proofs/guidance, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ سَنُدْخِلُهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِنْ تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۖ لَهُمْ فِيهَا أَزْوَاجٌ مُطَهَّرَةٌ ۖ وَنُدْخِلُهُمْ ظِلًّا ظَلِيلًا {57} [4:57] And (as for) those who believe and do good deeds, We will make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them for ever; they shall have therein pure mates, and We shall make them enter a dense shade. إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَأْمُرُكُمْ أَنْ تُؤَدُّوا الْأَمَانَاتِ إِلَىٰ أَهْلِهَا وَإِذَا حَكَمْتُمْ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ أَنْ تَحْكُمُوا بِالْعَدْلِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ نِعِمَّا يَعِظُكُمْ بِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ سَمِيعًا بَصِيرًا {58} [4:58] Surely Allah commands you to make over trusts to their owners and that when you judge between people you judge with justice; surely Allah admonishes you with what is excellent; surely Allah is Seeing, Hearing. يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا {59} [4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those who possess the command/authority from you; therefore if you dispute about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الَّذِينَ يَزْعُمُونَ أَنَّهُمْ آمَنُوا بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكَ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ يُرِيدُونَ أَنْ يَتَحَاكَمُوا إِلَى الطَّاغُوتِ وَقَدْ أُمِرُوا أَنْ يَكْفُرُوا بِهِ وَيُرِيدُ الشَّيْطَانُ أَنْ يُضِلَّهُمْ ضَلَالًا بَعِيدًا {60} [4:60] Have you not seen those who assert that they believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you? They desire to summon one another to the judgment of the Taghut, though they were commanded to deny him, and the Shaitan desires to lead them astray into a remote error.
If anyone sincerely reflects it can be seen a portion of the people of the book believed in the false unjust authority and said they are more guided then believers. Then it refers to the fact of whether they have share in authority. Then it states or is it that they envy a specific people for what God has given them out of his grace. This shows the believers they were talking about was particularly these people, and it's these people that they would not give anything to if they were the ones of true authority. It also then shows that these people are like the family of Abraham, who too been given the book, the wisdom, and a great authority, so that they are not justified in envying them, while accepting chosen ones in the past. The great authority was their link of authority to following that of God. Then it emphasizes that those who turned way from the great authority of the family of Ibrahim would be punished. Then it's emphasized those who disbelieve in signs/proofs/guidance of God would be punished and those who believe rewarded. After reminding to judge people by justice showing one of the dimensions of the authority, it states to Obey God showing the purpose of the great authority of the family of Abraham and then we are told to obey the Messenger and those who possess the the command/authority from us. Then we are told so/therefore if we dispute a thing refer it to God and the Messenger, showing the Ulil-Amr always command towards Quran and Sunnah as that was said to be part of obeying them. The false authority is then reminded after that, that some people say they believe in what has been revealed, but then go the judgement of the Taghut.
Now the Shia interpretation is clear. As the divine authority of the family of Abraham was emphasized, what was meant by 4:59 that was the divine authority of God in his chosen ones and pure ones. This is the obvious context if sincerely reflected about.
However the Sunni says this refers to all rulers and their appointed authorities, meaning even unjust rulers have authority and are to be obeyed. This is despite the emphasis on to disbelieve in the Taghut (False Unjust Authority) showing it's not about temporal power as instances of the Taghut have that authority, and this is despite the emphasis of the great authority of the family of Abraham, while some of them interpret that as worldly kingdom given to David or Sulaiman.
But such interpretation is obviously against rational, the flow of verses, and the majestic meaning. God's obedience was mention first to emphasis obeying the Ulil-Amr is obeying him, and they were put in the same obedience to the Messenger showing it's one type of
Authority. That and the flow of the verses before and after.
This is veil number 1. The meaning with reflection is clear, and the emphasis on the Taghut is to show what is meant is not temporal authority that even misguided unjust leaders can have but rather as we been commanded to disbelief in the Taghut, that authority has been negated.
The mention of the Jibt is also of significance showing the false misguiding authorities are product of the sorcery cast by dark forces upon the hearts of humanity, making them believe in their authority, hence emphasizing they believe in it, and here it has wisdom being put in, as people blind to the Ulil-Amr has no real explanation aside from the Jibt (sorcery) on the hearts by Satan and his forces. This being places where locks have been put, it's been reminded of, and the knots blown on the hearts, is of these instances, saying the Ulil-Amr are any rulers or their appointees.
So what.
This only demonstrates your ability to regurgitate what a book says.
"Don't believe the fakes" is a motif they all use.
It is a literary device writers of ALL holy books employed back then to suck gullible people like you to fear the questioning of others.
"Mohammed said don't believe them, its a trick"
"Jesus said don't believe them, it's a trick"
"Yahweh said don't believe them, it's a trick"
Now again, those books were written in a tribal era when loyalty to the tribe was mandatory and blind obedience was the social norm. "Don't believe them" , is an appeal to fear.
There is no evil in being a skeptic. There is no devil causing me to reject your claims. There is just you defending very bad logic and looking for an excuse to cling to those claims.
(April 19, 2015 at 2:07 pm)Brian37 Wrote: There is no evil in being a skeptic. There is no devil causing me to reject your claims. There is just you defending very bad logic and looking for an excuse to cling to those claims.
Sorry to be clear, what I wanted to state, was that for people who accept the Quran, not seeing the true recitation of Ulil-Amr in this instance, can only be due to dark forces, as the recitation with any degree of sincere reflection will make it obvious it's not about any rulers who can even be the worse people on earth but rather those bestowed the Divine command/authority.
(April 19, 2015 at 2:07 pm)Brian37 Wrote: There is no evil in being a skeptic. There is no devil causing me to reject your claims. There is just you defending very bad logic and looking for an excuse to cling to those claims.
Sorry to be clear, what I wanted to state, was that for people who accept the Quran, not seeing the true recitation of Ulil-Amr in this instance, can only be due to dark forces, as the recitation with any degree of sincere reflection will make it obvious it's not about any rulers who can even be the worse people on earth but rather those bestowed the Divine command/authority.
"true recitation"
Same as
"Correct interpretation"
Get that from Christians and Jews too. "If you would just see it my way".
Nope, none of those books, including yours, were written by scientifically literate humans. They are books reflecting the social norms of the times in which they were written. You like Christians and Jews and even Hindus are merely stuck on pretty.
Now please understand the concept of "divine/authority" was a common motif in both polytheism and monotheism in antiquity. The Egyptians also attributed their success and fortune to the "divine". Humans back then had no clue that they were doing it and no god or gods were helping them.
Your book is the 3rd in the Abraham tradition, but not even the first monotheism in that line of Hebrew was original. Hebrews merely took the "divine/authority" from the "divine family" of the Canaanites and Yahweh was a lesser god in that "divine family" took him from a lesser god and elevated him to the only god in their new splinter religion.
We know you really want to believe, but the fact is Islam, and Christianity and Hebrew and all religions for that matter are merely inventions of humans.
