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RE: Problems With The Bible Pt 5 - Sodom and Gomorrah
April 30, 2015 at 4:59 pm
(April 30, 2015 at 4:51 pm)alpha male Wrote: (April 30, 2015 at 4:39 pm)Iroscato Wrote: "Worship me or burn for eternity."
Seems pretty straightforward. What exactly is missing?
Read the Bible and find out.
I tried, really I did. Unfortunately the bloodthirst put me off. Also, the entire fucking concept is absurd, there is that small point.
I've read passages, excerpts, etc. I know enough to know it's barely worth wiping my english arse with.
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RE: Problems With The Bible Pt 5 - Sodom and Gomorrah
April 30, 2015 at 6:44 pm
(This post was last modified: April 30, 2015 at 6:45 pm by Mudhammam.)
(April 30, 2015 at 4:51 pm)alpha male Wrote: Read the Bible and find out. Stop making your arguments so compelling. There's virtually no chance any critic you meet will stand to get passed the cheribum and its scary flaming sword if you keep dismissing their honest reflections with omnipotent rebuttals such as that.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Problems With The Bible Pt 5 - Sodom and Gomorrah
May 1, 2015 at 7:33 am
(April 30, 2015 at 6:44 pm)Nestor Wrote: Stop making your arguments so compelling. There's virtually no chance any critic you meet will stand to get passed the cheribum and its scary flaming sword if you keep dismissing their honest reflections with omnipotent rebuttals such as that.
I disagree that "worship me or burn for eternity" is an honest reflection by someone who's seriously tried to understand the Bible.
In Eden, did god sit on a throne and require A&E to come and bow down before him? No. There is no record of A&E worshipping.
The Mosaic law includes sacrifices and festivals which could be considered worship. However, it did not threaten hell. The deal was that If Israel obeyed the law, they would rule over the other nations on earth.
Coming to the Gospels, Jesus washes his disciples' feet and says that they're no longer servants, but rather friends.
Paul says that we are god's children, his heirs, and joint heirs with Christ.
When we worship, it's not out of fear of hell, it's out of love. 1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us.
The bible mentions the fear of god, but note that it says the fear of god is the beginning of wisdom. Love is the destination.
The greatest commandment isn't to worship god, or to fear him. It is to love him. Love doesn't indicate worship, which is clear as the second commandment is to love one's neighbor, which clearly doesn't mean worshipping all your neighbors.
If you don't want to read the Bible, that's your choice. But why would you then act as if you know what it says?
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RE: Problems With The Bible Pt 5 - Sodom and Gomorrah
May 1, 2015 at 7:38 am
(This post was last modified: May 1, 2015 at 7:41 am by Nope.)
(April 30, 2015 at 4:51 pm)alpha male Wrote: (April 30, 2015 at 4:39 pm)Iroscato Wrote: "Worship me or burn for eternity."
Seems pretty straightforward. What exactly is missing?
Read the Bible and find out.
I have. The message of the bible is that god wants love so much that he is willing to allow evil so he can be worshiped. If anyone doesn't worship him than that person goes to an eternity of torture. The only way around this is if you don't believe in hell, alphamale. Christians believe in such an assortment of believes that it is possible that you don't believe in hell.
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RE: Problems With The Bible Pt 5 - Sodom and Gomorrah
May 1, 2015 at 7:42 am
(May 1, 2015 at 7:38 am)Nope Wrote: I have. The message of the bible is that god wants love so much that he is willing to allow evil so he can be worshiped. If anyone doesn't worship him than that person goes to an eternity of torture. The only way around this is if you don't believe in hell, alphamale. Christians believe in such an assortment of believes that it is possible that you don't believe in hell.
See my comments above. I can supply citations if you like. Can you support your position with passages?
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RE: Problems With The Bible Pt 5 - Sodom and Gomorrah
May 1, 2015 at 7:50 am
(This post was last modified: May 1, 2015 at 7:54 am by Nope.)
(May 1, 2015 at 7:42 am)alpha male Wrote: (May 1, 2015 at 7:38 am)Nope Wrote: I have. The message of the bible is that god wants love so much that he is willing to allow evil so he can be worshiped. If anyone doesn't worship him than that person goes to an eternity of torture. The only way around this is if you don't believe in hell, alphamale. Christians believe in such an assortment of believes that it is possible that you don't believe in hell.
See my comments above. I can supply citations if you like. Can you support your position with passages?
That is going to take some time and probably a lot of space. It is the overall message of the bible so I don't know if there are verses that say exactly that without me picking my way through the entire bible. I can do it but it might take a couple of days. Do you want me to start a new thread? Hopefully, the mods won't think I am calling you out. That wouldn't be my intent
Do you not believe in hell? If you do, why do you think it exists? Do you not believe in free will? What did I write did you disagree and did I say anything that you agreed? That would help me narrow down my verses.
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RE: Problems With The Bible Pt 5 - Sodom and Gomorrah
May 1, 2015 at 8:26 am
A new thread is fine with me. Some comments on what you said already:
Quote:The message of the bible is that god wants love so much that he is willing to allow evil so he can be worshiped.
Here you seem to be conflating love and worship. I addressed that above.
Regarding hell, it's a place for punishment of sin. It results from god's sense of justice. Salvation OTOH results from god's mercy and grace. People frequently make the mistake of conflating the two. That a person is saved solely through faith does not necessarily mean that people are damned solely for lack of faith.
You should also consider this question: are people spared hell because they worship; or do they worship because they were first spared from hell? In my own experience, I believed I deserved to go to hell, and it didn't cause me to worship. When I learned of freely given grace and accepted it, that's when I began to worship.
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RE: Problems With The Bible Pt 5 - Sodom and Gomorrah
May 1, 2015 at 9:02 am
(May 1, 2015 at 8:26 am)alpha male Wrote: A new thread is fine with me. Some comments on what you said already:
Quote:The message of the bible is that god wants love so much that he is willing to allow evil so he can be worshiped.
Here you seem to be conflating love and worship. I addressed that above.
Regarding hell, it's a place for punishment of sin. It results from god's sense of justice. Salvation OTOH results from god's mercy and grace. People frequently make the mistake of conflating the two. That a person is saved solely through faith does not necessarily mean that people are damned solely for lack of faith.
You should also consider this question: are people spared hell because they worship; or do they worship because they were first spared from hell? In my own experience, I believed I deserved to go to hell, and it didn't cause me to worship. When I learned of freely given grace and accepted it, that's when I began to worship.
Okay, I started a new thread in the Christianity section. I didn't put your name in the title because I don't want the mods to think I am calling you out which is against the rules and not my intent anyway. It is such a broad subject that it should be interesting discussion even if the thread gets derailed.
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RE: Problems With The Bible Pt 5 - Sodom and Gomorrah
May 1, 2015 at 9:03 am
I think the closest you get to an overarching message in the Bible is redemption. Even if you take the two separately (OT, NT) there is a thread of redemption. The Israelites are a tale of temporary redemption for a small nation of people that the NT treats as a precursor to a tale of eternal redemption for all people and all time. I don't think it's a story of god being loving until the NT; in the OT he is stern and demanding and cruel unless he gets his way (and sometimes he is cruel even when he does get his way, per the example of Job). The NT stresses that god is loving and kind but also shows him to be petty and vengeful and violent. But the idea of redemption is there throughout, and it's fairly consistent IMO.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
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RE: Problems With The Bible Pt 5 - Sodom and Gomorrah
May 1, 2015 at 9:12 am
(This post was last modified: May 1, 2015 at 9:22 am by robvalue.)
So let's recap what we have learned:
1- Angels were designed to make most people want to have sex with them, at least the ones in this town
2- Using your daughter as a bribe to a mob of rapists is fine
3- Disobeying God can result in unusual punishment, death or both
4- God thinks firebombing a whole town is a reasonable reaction to his own design decision in point 1
5- This was such a good story it was worth telling a version of it again with another town (judges 19) particularly to reinforce point 2
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