Couple of clingers in my de-converting

[Won2blv]

Hello all, I have a nagging thought that does bother me when it comes to walking away from my faith. I have been raised since childhood that the point of the bible and everything we see in the world comes down to this, "we're better off without god is what Satan taught and Gods sovereignty is what will prevail." Please, oh please, for the sake of argument lets leave out whether or not the god of the bible is benevolent or not. If you're an atheist and you're asserting that you're more moral than god it seems like a poor argument to prove he doesn't exist and has nothing to do with what I am asking. So, anyway... I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and we believe that mankind as a whole cannot direct their own step (Jeremiah 10:23) We believe that we live in the last days as described in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. I have read conflicting reports on this subject. Some say that we live in the most peaceful time in history. Or some say that news just travels more quickly and easily and bad news gets more coverage. I am not going to argue that either of those are false but... 100 years ago humans didn't have the capability to blow up the whole earth ten times over. We weren't killing our planet with Co2 emissions and so on. I hear about how fracking is causing 800-900 earthquakes in Oklahoma year, up from a whopping 1 or 2 a year before fracking. Really, there are other subjects that you could go on about that or more subjective, like the internet. An awesome tool that has connected the whole earth but also in my opinion has made humans more insular to beliefs that are not their own. Maybe even just less socially normal. That is more subjective but you get the point.

So, TLDR how can I feel confident that what is going on with humans is not a right on track of biblical prophecy but really just business as usual? And please please please, I could tell you about how much I care about hearing on the different dates of the JW past but I am not sure what the rules are on cursing.

[Jenny A]

This appears to be addressed to TLDR and not the forum in general, but I will answer anyway and you can read it or not as you see fit.

The answer to your question is not how to feel confident that humans are not on on a biblical track, but to ask yourself whatever made you think (or more likely feel) we ever were. I see no sign whatsoever that biblical prophesy is any better than fortune cookies, and no evidence of god. Without evidence god is irrelevant because the non-existent is irrelevant.

You see, the burden to prove any proposition, including the existence of the Christian god is on the proponent of the claim. And no such evidence exists. I can't prove to you that unicorns, Zeus, the Loch Ness Monster, Apollo, Allah, Ra, or many other things don't exist. But the absence of evidence that they do exist makes believing in them silly. The same is true of the god of Isaac, Jacob, and Abraham or of the divinity of Jesus.

I would not suggest that the fact that most people alive today are more moral than the god of the OT proves he does not exist, but his morality has nothing to do with whether he exists. Evidence does. Have any evidence such a being exists? I don't. Many great minds have tried and failed to show his existence. If the evidence were there we'd be confronted with it every day. Instead we have a contradictory, non historic, iron age book. So I dismiss the god hypothesis for lack of evidence.

What people have and haven't accomplished is also irrelevant to the question of whether god exists.

It comes down to evidence. That's it.

[TheRealJoeFish]

1. The rules on cursing on this board are somewhere between "don't care at all" to "highly encouraged," it seems. Yay swear words!

2. When you hear about the present being qualitatively different from the past - that is, when questions arise as to whether this is "business as usual" - there are often three sorts of conflicting claims that are mixed together (to the detriment of any sensible discussion to be had; OP, you've done a good job of keeping these separate):

1) Nature is getting more violent (that is, there are more natural earthquakes, hurricanes, and such). This is, of course, nonsense (aside, maybe, from perfectly explainable geological and meteorological trends and variance), and it should be readily apparent that this is just a matter of more news coverage, more people living more densely in hurricane areas, and the like.

2) Morality is decaying and people are changing for the worse. As you acknowledge, this is extremely subjective in a lot of ways. I recall reading that a scroll or carving from 2700 BC says something like "look at the young people today, and their decadence; we are clearly in the end times." I think a whole lot of this is any "change" in popular morality necessarily being described as negative, rather than positive, change; after all, a person's morality is what they use to differentiate between good and bad, so any deviation from the moral code that person holds will generally be thought of as negative. Now, that's not to say all changes in societal makeup are good; for instance, the increasingly sedentary lifestyle leading to decreased personal health in developed countries. But most of this is based in fear of change and panic, I think.

3) Humans are causing more destruction. Now, this is interesting, because I think this probably is the case. Humans are warming the globe and destroying species daily. It's absolutely true that we didn't have thousands of nuclear weapons 100 years ago; we have more capacity to kill more people now than ever before. Now, of course, a lot of this has to do with there being so many more people, but I think this is a valid point, at least inasmuch as the human species has developed the capacity to destroy itself.

To get from any of this to anything religious is, I think, a total non sequitur, especially if you, like I think you've suggested, you don't feel as though biblical prophecy is accurately predicting things today. As far as "humans can't control their own steps," well, that just seems like an interesting if glib description of history: obviously, plans don't always work out on any scale, and when you have numerous factions (individuals, families, clans, nations, kingdoms, religions, corporations, etc) each trying to maximize their gain, then things are going to happen that not everyone agrees is good.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that feelings that "things aren't going like they should" are simultaneously 1) normal, because we often base what "should" happen on what "has" happened, 2) often illusory, the result of confirmation bias and the like, 3) probably true in some senses (like global warming), and 4) not even remotely related to anything religious.

TL;DR: Suppose: IF Biblical Prophecy is true, THEN Bad things that are happening are predictive of the end-times. Observe: Some bad things are happening. From this, we cannot logically infer that "we are in the end-times" is true; we'd still need to affirm the proposition, the truth-value of which is separate from that of the consequent, that "biblical prophecy is true". What's after the arrow isn't evidence of what's before the arrow. That's Logic 101, Day 1 babyyy

[robvalue]

The problem with religious "prophecy" is that they are incredibly vague, including exactly when they are going to happen. If you really want them to seem true, you'll find a way of convincing yourself that they are.

There have been loads of false panics about this, people giving dates when it's going to end, reading into the prophecy what they want to read. Sure, I agree, nuclear weapons are really bad and dangerous. They are a ridiculous threat. It's a different kind of threat, but yet another one for people to cling to as "it's really coming true this time".

Jesus was meant to return within the lifetime of those who saw him ressurect. He failed to do this, and now Christians try to brush this aside and pretend he overslept or something and it's happening "any time now". Unfortunately "any time now" has been going on for 2000 years.

Curse all you like, this is a relaxed forum Fucking prophecies Religion thrives on this vagueness, and the "can't prove it wrong" argument from ignorance fallacy (covered on my website). That's all this comes down to really, you can't prove it isn't happening. Also as TRJF says, bad things happening does not tell us why bad things are happening.

In my opinion, the last 50-100 years or so have been an astonishingly fast growth of civilisation, we now take for granted human rights and liberties which certain people just did not have. I'm not sure what your point was about the Internet. As far as I am concerned, the Internet has made it harder for people to insulate their followers from the outside world. Religion thrives on this insulation and control of information. Now everyone can fact check what they are being told, and even little children can find out what nonsense the bible is.

You are very brave to be facing up to a possible de conversion. If it happens it will be a process and will take a little time, so don't panic. The truth stays the same regardless of anyone's opinion of it.

One last important point: even if a certain part of the bible happens to make an "accurate" prediction, that is not evidence that anything else the bible says is true at all. All it means is they somehow got one thing right. It may be blind luck, it may be they had some way of knowing things we have now lost, it could be magic, it could be talking frogs which they are too scared to mention. Just because they got it right, it doesn't mean the way they say they got it right is also true either. That is a further claim that needs demonstrating. A book of drivel with a few true things in it doesn't suddenly become all true, especially the supernatural stuff which you'd never believe from any book other than one you've been indoctrinated to believe. For example:

In 2080 a man will become the first robot/human hybrid.
1+1=5
I am God
I got this information from my invisible friend Spiddy

That is my gospel. If my prediction comes true, does that mean we should also just accept the new version of maths, and that in fact I am God? And that I did in fact get this info from Spiddy? No. Those claims, including where I got the info from, need verifying in their own right. Of course, every religion will use the same argument as well, that their predictions are special and prove their religion. If the same sort of argument proves everything for everyone, it's a bit if a giveaway that it actually proves nothing and is entirely based on confirmation bias.

[bennyboy]

So, TLDR how can I feel confident that what is going on with humans is not a right on track of biblical prophecy but really just business as usual? And please please please, I could tell you about how much I care about hearing on the different dates of the JW past but I am not sure what the rules are on cursing.

If so, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.  It's Christian fundamentalism hand-in-hand with Republicanism that makes most of the stupid stuff possible.  Overfishing?  Meh, God put fish for us to dominate.  Environmental destruction?  Meh, we wouldn't get sick if that wasn't part of God's mysterious plan.  Nuclear holocaust ending all human life?  Meh, it's in the Bible.  Was prolly gonna happen anyway, but no biggie my seat in Heaven is already bought and paid for.

The best way to make sure an apocalypse doesn't happen is to remove the belief system that expects it (and in many cases prays for it).

[Aractus]

The Bible has only ever made one single prophecy that came true. This one:

Mark 13:1-2: And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” Also recorded in Matthew 24:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6. In Luke Jesus makes the prediction a second time, in Luke 19:41-44.

The problem with that prophecy though is that it was an easy one to make. Jerusalem has fallen to siege many times since that prediction was made, in 70 AD and then again a few decades later. It was a prophecy that was bound to happen; and it had already happened at least 3 times before the prediction was made.

So the question you need to ask when asking about Biblical prophecies is does the Bible actually contain any credible prophecies that have come to pass? And the answer is, no. In fact if you read Mark 13 Jesus claimed that people would come in his name - this has never happened - he claimed they would see the abomination of desolation prior to the siege - that never happened either. Christians now think they will see the abomination of desolation prior to the second coming, but if that's what Jesus meant then why does he say for those in Judea to run for the hills? After all he tells his disciples to go out from Judea and spread the gospel to all the nations.

[Minimalist]

Jerusalem was sacked and burned in 70 but it was not actually leveled until 135 when Hadrian's urban renewal project, Aelia Capitolina, was built on the site.  Josephus, who was present at the siege of Jerusalem, tells us that a number of towers remained which makes the so-called "Mark prophecy" a bit premature....unless it was written in the mid 2d century in which case it was true enough.

Hadrian DID level it.  But before that:

http://www.biu.ac.il/js/rennert/history_5.html

Jerusalem's Jewish population was replaced by soldiers of the Roman Tenth Legion, their families, and some civilians, Hellenists from Syria and elsewhere. Vespasian, who had led the triumphant army, was appointed emperor. He and his son Titus marked their victory by minting a coin bearing the inscription "Judea is captured." Until then Jews throughout the world had sent donations to the Temple in Jerusalem. Now they were compelled to pay a special tax to support Roman temples. With the Jewish "gods" now safely deposited in Rome, the Romans assumed that the Jews were vanquished.

Just as David built his altar on the site of the Jebusite altar some thousand years earlier, the Romans built two temples to displace Jewish and Christian worship at Jerusalem's holy sites. On the Temple Mount Hadrian built a temple to Jupiter. Literary sources refers to two statutes on the Temple Mount, one of them of Hadrian. An inscription which was found in secondary use on the Mount refers to Emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161). On the traditional site of the crucifixion Hadrian built a temple to Aphrodite. This temple was torn down about 200 hundred years later by the Byzantines, who reclaimed the site for Christianity by building the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Under the church archaeologists found retaining walls built to artificially elevate the base of the pagan temple, just as Herod did when he leveled and expanded the Temple Mount.

I doubt that's what ole yahweh the bloody-handed had in mind.

[Aractus]

Jesus of Nazareth wasn't the only one to make the prophecy. Josephus records another Jesus making a similar prophecy (see War of the Jews 6:5:3) and states that the prophecy was made 4 years before war broke out (so c. 62AD). There's no indication from Josephus that this Jesus was a Christian, only that he went about proclaiming the coming destruction day and night in the streets of Jerusalem.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I hear about how fracking is causing 800-900 earthquakes in Oklahoma year, up from a whopping 1 or 2 a year before fracking. 

Evere notice how when it's a libertine place like New Orleans, a natural disaster is evidence of God's displeasure, while when it's a place inhabited by conformist religious yokels like Oklahoma, the earthquakes are man-made?

No, your god sent those quakes because he's tired of dumbasses putting up three churches per block rather than spending their money helping the needy. Get your act together, Oklahoma.

[downbeatplumb]

Hello all, I have a nagging thought that does bother me when it comes to walking away from my faith. I have been raised since childhood that the point of the bible and everything we see in the world comes down to this, "we're better off without god is what Satan taught and Gods sovereignty is what will prevail." Please, oh please, for the sake of argument lets leave out whether or not the god of the bible is benevolent or not. If you're an atheist and you're asserting that you're more moral than god it seems like a poor argument to prove he doesn't exist and has nothing to do with what I am asking. So, anyway... I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and we believe that mankind as a whole cannot direct their own step (Jeremiah 10:23) We believe that we live in the last days as described in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. I have read conflicting reports on this subject. Some say that we live in the most peaceful time in history. Or some say that news just travels more quickly and easily and bad news gets more coverage. I am not going to argue that either of those are false but... 100 years ago humans didn't have the capability to blow up the whole earth ten times over. We weren't killing our planet with Co2 emissions and so on. I hear about how fracking is causing 800-900 earthquakes in Oklahoma year, up from a whopping 1 or 2 a year before fracking. Really, there are other subjects that you could go on about that or more subjective, like the internet. An awesome tool that has connected the whole earth but also in my opinion has made humans more insular to beliefs that are not their own. Maybe even just less socially normal. That is more subjective but you get the point.

So, TLDR how can I feel confident that what is going on with humans is not a right on track of biblical prophecy but really just business as usual? And please please please, I could tell you about how much I care about hearing on the different dates of the JW past but I am not sure what the rules are on cursing.

This seems to be squirrel Nutkin running around shouting the sky is falling because an acorn fell on his head.

The world is just as it always was, turbulent and changing and full of old people going "it wasn't like this when I was young".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tyLGi2LtlU