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Nature's Laws
#21
RE: Nature's Laws
(May 15, 2015 at 3:00 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Freedom, even if every question you can think of asking can only be answered by "We don't know", you would still have no reason to postulate a god. And saying 'it seems likely' or 'it makes sense to me' or 'it's imaginable' is not any form of evidence.
Likewise it doesn't mean his faith is irrational as some would have us believe.
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#22
RE: Nature's Laws
Quote:I think that there is more to "reality" than just the physical stuff of nature
Why do you think that?

And how do you get from that to Christianity?

(May 15, 2015 at 3:32 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:
(May 15, 2015 at 3:00 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Freedom, even if every question you can think of asking can only be answered by "We don't know", you would still have no reason to postulate a god. And saying 'it seems likely' or 'it makes sense to me' or 'it's imaginable' is not any form of evidence.
Likewise it doesn't mean his faith is irrational as some would have us believe.

Err..yes..it does. Not having an answer to a question doesn't mean making up an answer is rational.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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#23
RE: Nature's Laws
Are you talking about supernatural stuff? Can you demonstrate the supernatural in any way? Can the supernatural be falsified at all? If you answer in the negative, then you are not justified in believing that a 'supernatural' plane exists.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain

'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House

“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom

"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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#24
RE: Nature's Laws
(May 15, 2015 at 3:26 pm)Freedom4me Wrote:
(May 15, 2015 at 3:10 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: So, what convinced you in Josh McDowel's books (about which I agree with Simon)?

It was partly the uniqueness of the bible and a few other points such as the harmony that exists from one book to another, the details involving future events which have come to pass etc.

Other religious texts are just as unique as the Bible, just in different ways. 

The so called "prophecies" in the OT that you allude to, on deeper study, are not what you believe they are. They are all; mistranslations, misinterpretations, referencing events that occurred in the OT, or self fulfilling. 

If you want to discuss a specific prophecy that convinced you, please do. 
 

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#25
RE: Nature's Laws
Most scientifically minded people do not deny the existence of the supernatural, but instead admit that we cannot by definition ever learn anything about it.

I've written more here:

http://robvalue.wix.com/atheism#!natural...tural/czy5
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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#26
RE: Nature's Laws
(May 15, 2015 at 3:28 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: Alright, lets hear them. What prophecies convinced you?

Here is perhaps my favorite passage from Isaiah 53.


Who has believed our message

    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.
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#27
RE: Nature's Laws
(May 15, 2015 at 3:36 pm)Freedom4me Wrote: Here is perhaps my favorite passage from Isaiah 53.


Who has believed our message

    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.
Ok, can you go through each one and explain what the prophecy actually says and how it came true in real life?
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain

'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House

“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom

"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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#28
RE: Nature's Laws
You know the people who wrote the NT could just read the OT and write stuff to make it look like things had "come true", right? In fact, this is what they did, so much so that they went way overboard into nonsensical things due to errors in their attempts to copy it.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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#29
RE: Nature's Laws
First of all, welcome aboard.

Second: there's a difference between physical laws and societal ones. Physical laws are descriptive of nature; societal laws are proscriptive towards behaviour. If nature could write proscriptive laws, wouldn't "keep off the grass" be among the top ten?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#30
RE: Nature's Laws
And what about Isaiah 53 causes you to believe it's a prophecy of Jesus? If you weren't already primed to believe so by centuries of previous Christian interpretation and just read the passage in context, do you think you would have ever made that interpretative stretch on your own? Have you ever consulted a knowledgeable practicing Jew -- preferably a Rabbi -- on that passage?
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