What Exactly Does the Holy Spirit Do?

[Anomalocaris]

I think it goes something like this:

"I am filled with the Holy Spirit!" - I am drunk.

"The Holy Spirit is speaking through me!" - I am drunk and raving.

"The Holy Spirit is moving me!" - I am drunk and driving.

"The Holy Spirit is empowering me!" - I am drunk and horny.

"I am persecuted for spreading the word of the Holy Spirit to all who will listen!" - I am Kent Hovind.

Perhaps you would have better luck with methanol.

[robvalue]

I see this all the time with religious arguments, "affirming the consequent". Maybe I need to add it to my website.

I prayed to God to feel better
God can make me feel better
I felt better
Therefor, God exists and listened to my prayer

Nope. You're using logic backwards. What this misses is that there any number of other reasons why you might feel better, or whatever the consequence is. Including, and this is the big one, believing your assumed causation is really happening, in cases where the placebo effect could be sufficient.

For something unrelated to placebo, like say getting a cheque for lots of money after praying for money, then you need to consider other possible causations. Maybe it was an error. Maybe the person felt generous. Maybe you did something to deserve it. And so on. To just jump to the causation you want it to be is the fallacy.

Of course, for those utterly uninterested in honesty or logic, you can just say "well God was responsible for whatever other causation there was". Unfalsifiable, and useless. It also strangely limits god's powers to influencing people's free will and getting them to do what he wants. I thought he wasn't supposed to do that.

[Minimalist]

Way too complex for drippy, Rob.

You have to keep it simple for simpletons.

[The Grand Nudger]

I have had my doubts about Drich also but I try to answer him in a serious manner just in case he really does have  a formally  drug addicted wife. Also, there might be some lurkers who are on the fence about religion who might need an alternate answer to Drich's story.

Psh...I'll answer Drich in a serious manner the moment he stops claiming that softly spoken incantations are an effective treatment for heroin addiction.  Until then he gets treated like the fucking child he -insists- on presenting himself as.  

[Drich]

Drich, I would think that ODing on the floor of a public restroom probably changed her life.

You'd think that.. But it wasn't her first time. When we were dating her Od'ing in a public bathroom is how I found out she had a drug problem.. Plus if I remember right it was several months from her final OD to the 2am wake up call by the sherriff's department. and the reason she had her bags packed and sleeping on the couch was I found out she was using again.

So no, 'rock bottom' was not found on a barns and noble book store bathroom. Nor in jail (This was like her 2nd or 3rd visit behind 2 DUI's.) At the end of her stay in jail, she simply gave up and said I can do this by myself. So she/we finally turned to God together. Like I said, she had no other influences. our parents wanted nothing to do with us, no friends, no meetings, no nothing. And to tell the truth at that point in our relationship I was not supportive nor caring as I should have been. I had to demand to know where every thing of value was, where every cent she spent went, I had to turn out her stuff looking for stashes almost daily.(we 10 years later are still finding 'things.') Plus being a prison guard made a little cranky. So she did not get the emotional support she needed from me.

However, I do believe your prayers worked, not because your god is real, but because your wife needed to believe in something else to help her have the strength to not use drugs.  It is the placebo effect in action.

And it must have been the placebo effect that got me a business loan from a stranger, seen me through an AIDS Diagnosis, the recent year long Cancer scare, and all of the hundreds if not thousands of 'unexplainable' happenings in my life that has us where we are today.. The Holy Spirit is not a once and done thing. It is God actively/almost daily providing, seeing you though life.

One of the reasons why I do not try to deconvert people in real life is because I can't tell what someone else is going through. Maybe they need the placebo effect of religion to help them.

-or maybe it's God helping them through life.

[Longhorn]

-or maybe it's God helping them through life.

Or maybe it's Satan luring them into a false sense of security and happiness only to one day drop a bomb of unimaginable pain on them and everyone they know

Your guess is as good as mine

[Drich]

Lol, you're kinder than I am Nope, you believe that his prayer worked to help his wife.....I don't believe that he actually -has- a wife.  

I have had my doubts about Drich also but I try to answer him in a serious manner just in case he really does have  a formally  drug addicted wife. Also, there might be some lurkers who are on the fence about religion who might need an alternate answer to Drich's story.

Drich,  your wife has been clean for 10 years and you dealt with her issues for 2-3 years but you stated that your dad stopped talking to you 15 years ago because of your wife's dependency. Also, didnt your dad stop talking to you when he kicked you out of the house? I thought that happened in high school?

lol, which time?
He has kicked me out for forgetting 'Father's Day.'
that lasted a week (the angel visit got us back together)

Then he avoided me for a month when He thought I got AIDS from 'being gay.' (He didn't like the fact that I was a inner city youth camp counsellor)

When I left the house on my own for the last time he went almost a year (Because I was paying for his morage, and a bunch of my sister's stuff.)

Then when He went off the rails of his crazy train with my wife's addiction that was 04 (we were married in march 03) I just started speaking with him about 2 1/2 or 3 years ago. (It took him that long to admit he was in the wrong.) The night I told him Trich at a Drug problem I asked him not to tell anyone, I get home the next day and all of my friends and family were at my house for an intervention (For me, she was away at a rehab.) They were trying to get me to goto a rehab.. Only problem? I wasn't on drugs, never tried the stuff. I didn't even drink.

 When I refused to go and tried to make everyone leave he called the cops and tried to have me baker acted, he Said I was going to kill myself... At no point was I ever wanting to end my life. I wanted to end his, but I was good life sucked at the time but was making my way through it. I told him because I wanted someone to talk to. (Trich didn't want my friends to know, I had to twist her arm to tell my dad..) When I asked him why he was doing all of this he said "I need the support of my friends and family, it's a pretty hard thing to process to find out your son and daughter in law are herion users..." Then he would perdiocially come by to tell me she is hooking to support her habbit, that she approached him, my uncle and other members of my family.. along with people he and I knew but she had never met, plus she was hanging out in ceedy street corners. (When she was either at work with me or at home with me.) Just all sorts of nasty vile hatful things about her and about me till I had enough and sent him home with a black eye and a busted lip, and told him not to ever come back. I sent word back after a year or so that if he could admit to his lies and the BS he was putting us through, I would forgive him. It took him another 7 years..

Even recently He wanted to borrow my old truck to put it in a car show, so I let him. Then He assumed he could drive it to work the following week. I told him he couldn't. He lost his mind then. call me all sorts of names and we went another month before his pride would allow him to apologize.

Repenting is new to him, but he is learning. Maybe if he had another 100 years he might even find himself to be a Christian.

---

I see this all the time with religious arguments, "affirming the consequent". Maybe I need to add it to my website.

I prayed to God to feel better
God can make me feel better
I felt better
Therefor, God exists and listened to my prayer

Nope. You're using logic backwards. What this misses is that there any number of other reasons why you might feel better, or whatever the consequence is. Including, and this is the big one, believing your assumed causation is really happening, in cases where the placebo effect could be sufficient.

For something unrelated to placebo, like say getting a cheque for lots of money after praying for money, then you need to consider other possible causations. Maybe it was an error. Maybe the person felt generous. Maybe you did something to deserve it. And so on. To just jump to the causation you want it to be is the fallacy.

Of course, for those utterly uninterested in honesty or logic, you can just say "well God was responsible for whatever other causation there was". Unfalsifiable, and useless. It also strangely limits god's powers to influencing people's free will and getting them to do what he wants. I thought he wasn't supposed to do that.

I'm not bragging, I just do not know how to compile all of this data in one place with out it sounding like someone bragging. Got to see the gates of Hell, Got to speak with an Angel, he told me what to expect/future, Was diagnosised with AIDS, (Not to mention cancer scare and a burst appendix) then it all went away, Had a drug addicted wife, it all went away, Was given 25K to start a business by someone I had never really met before. (I did work for his company but never met him) Grew the business from one man to 15. from working out of her dad's shop to having my own Air conditioned factory/warehouse in less than 4 years, Made my first million by the time I was 35, (and spent it) Recently patented 3 different innovations, (one of which I own, the other two were a 'collabration'/My work and idea someone elses resources.) working on a 4th. We sell our product internationally and all over the US. Oh, and hopfully (lord willing) this time next week we will have open a used car lot. all on a 4th-ish grade education. Plus a dozen other things I could list, but it would just be bragging at that point. and who know the hundreds of things I have forgotten.. All of which happened Through the Holy Spirit. By all accounts guys like me should be digging ditches or pan handleing.

I know for me the temptation is great to look back and see all that the Lord as given me and say "Look what I did." But in the end, like with this car lot deal (an my next 'big idea') It won't happen unless some really big obsticals are move out of our way. I know without a doubt these obsticals are well above and beyond my scope. That there is nothing I can do to move them, so if they are moved then It was not I but God who did. How can I say this? Because I know everything I have done is all I can do and I have fallen far short. At this point forward it would take an act of God. I know for most of you, you would try and dismiss it as a coincidence, but to live your whole life an a series on non stop 'coincidences' that has made you/given you far more than you could have EVER acheaved on your own is not a coincidence.

[Nope]

Is wealth a sign that an individual is blessed by the Christian god?

Howard Schultz, the CEO of Starbucks grew up in a housing project. He is Jewish.

Oprah Winfrey believes in god but wouldn't be considered a CHristian by many people. She was born into poverty in Mississippi and is now a very rich woman

Shahid Khan used to work as a dishwasher. He now owns the Jackson Jaguars and is a billionaire. He is Muslim.

These are just three nonChristian, wealthy individuals that I found online.  They all started out poor.

What exactly did the following Christians do wrong. Your god didn't save their lives but he supposedly gave you wealth?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosheh_Massacres

The Second Kosheh Massacre took place about one year later, on Friday 31 December 1999. The incidence stemmed from a quarrel between a Christian merchant and a Muslim customer. The misunderstanding strained Muslim-Christian relations in the community. Relatives of the Muslim customer targeted Christian-owned shops and homes, which were looted, destroyed, and burned. Initially, the police was able to contain the situation. However, two days later on Sunday 2 January 2000, riots spread violence into neighbouring villages and lead to the murders of 20 Christians. One Muslim was also accidentally shot dead by a fellow Muslim.[2][3] More than 40 people were injured in the two-day incident. 260 shops, houses and kiosks were also deliberately burnt or damaged.[2][3] Most of the killings took place in the outskirts of el-Kosheh, especially in the agriculture fields. This event was one of 's bloodiest massacres.

[Drich]

Is wealth a sign that an individual is blessed by the Christian god?

Who said anything about wealth? As you guys have demonstrated with my wife's recovery, or any single one instance can be rationalized and explained away. The only reason I meantioned any of the other responsibilities/blessings I received is to one parallel the parable of the talents (Where a Land ower gave one servant one 'bag of gold/talent' another 3 talents, and another 5, each to his abilities. The master went away, and upon His return He demanded an accounting of what the servants were given. The servants who received 3 and 5 talents doubled what they were given, and more was given to them. But, the one who only received 1 talent buried it in the sand. This man was condemned.)
I, no matter what I was given was faithful to it, and as a result was given more. Does this equal wealth, yes sometimes. More over it equals more responsibility, and the more we are given to be responsiable to the More help we will need from God to keep all of the things we have been given in order. The more help we get the harder it is to say these 'things/help' are just happenstance. Again just incase you missed it, The Holy Spirit's involvement in our lives is not about any single one thing but the sum total of our live's work/involvement. For me He has work through, health, family, Dreams, angelic encounters, business, as well as all the bad things.. In essence the Holy Spirit becomes very visable in one's life when ever that person is at the end of what they can physically or mentally do/handle and they still see an issue through or even come out on top, over and over again for a life time.

Howard Schultz, the CEO of Starbucks grew up in a housing project. He is Jewish.

Oprah Winfrey believes in god but wouldn't be considered a CHristian by many people. She was born into poverty in Mississippi and is now a very rich woman

Shahid Khan used to work as a dishwasher. He now owns the Jackson Jaguars and is a billionaire. He is Muslim.

These are just three non-Christian, wealthy individuals that I found online.  They all started out poor.

Just because a person has one element of the Spirit in their lives means nothing. Just as you 'good people' are so quick to point out about my wife's recovery.

Let's just say for a moment you or anyone else really did live the life I have been writing about for the last 2 or 3 years here. Where you have seen the things I've seen, and experienced the things I have experienced. Over and Over again. even experimented with things, by hold back when one is prompted to give or to give when it was not needed, and got a reaction consistant with what the bible teaches, over and over again for decades. Could you then dismiss God so easily? Espically when you know you have been carried through situations well above and beyond your ablity to manipulate an outcome?

What exactly did the following Christians do wrong. Your god didn't save their lives but he supposedly gave you wealth?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosheh_Massacres

The Second Kosheh Massacre took place about one year later, on Friday 31 December 1999. The incidence stemmed from a quarrel between a Christian merchant and a Muslim customer. The misunderstanding strained Muslim-Christian relations in the community. Relatives of the Muslim customer targeted Christian-owned shops and homes, which were looted, destroyed, and burned. Initially, the police was able to contain the situation. However, two days later on Sunday 2 January 2000, riots spread violence into neighbouring villages and lead to the murders of 20 Christians. One Muslim was also accidentally shot dead by a fellow Muslim.[2][3] More than 40 people were injured in the two-day incident. 260 shops, houses and kiosks were also deliberately burnt or damaged.[2][3] Most of the killings took place in the outskirts of el-Kosheh, especially in the agriculture fields. This event was one of 's bloodiest massacres.

What makes you think wealth=good things, and Death = bad?

Your whole argument presupposes that death is a 'bad' thing. If death is our birth into eternity, then the secular understanding of death, then looses all meaning.

Like wise wealth or rather the love of it is a corruptor like no other. That is why Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter Heaven.

Wealth is a task or responsibility. The temptation of wealth is to live well and to live above everyone. (All the things that makes you think it is a good thing rather than a potential bad thing)

When one view things like a early death verses a long wealthy life through the lens of eternity, an early death especially under the blanket of atonement Christ offers is not a bad thing.

[The Grand Nudger]

Drich asks us to consider being murdered good - and people continue to respond seriously...lol.