IF in the end, you find that God does exist ....

[robvalue]

Why does God always have others do his dirty work, claim credit when it's something people like, and deny all responsibility when it's something they don't?

If God is so obviously true and good, why does he need people to convince us of that, and why are they all failing? Does he want them to fail?

[Tonus]

As I've mentioned in this thread, a lot of atheists use "our" limited knowledge of the physical world to put together a puzzle that has virtually an unlimited number of pieces!

That might be a good description for the universe under any circumstances. It is estimated that there are as many as 30 million different species of life on the planet right now. That's just Earth, and that's just biology. Expanding beyond that introduces millions of other variables. As a species that is constantly seeking knowledge and understanding, this is a situation that definitely does not suck. We seek, we learn, we understand, we answer one question and create four new ones, and the process goes on. In the meantime, we build a pretty impressive world around us with that knowledge.

But we really haven't found any pieces that belong to god, aside from books and experiences and anecdotes. And as we learn about the world and the people in it, we begin to understand how and why religious belief is fostered in communities and societies. I grew up Christian, and so I am aware of the considerable amount of "evidence" that helps to confirm our beliefs. I am also aware of how these work, and of how our biases make them very effective. I am equally aware that we cannot get rid of all of our mental filters --we may actually need many of them just to function from day to day. But we do have ways of seeing past some of those filters and judging how reliable our beliefs are. Too many of the factors that drive belief are either unreliable, can be disproved by testing, or create awkward contradictions if they are assumed to be true.

It's not that I'm closed to the idea that god exists. It's that I won't be convinced by books and anecdotes and philosophical discussion that tries to get around the uncomfortable reality that god(s) refuse to show up and settle the question in the simplest way possible. I think that that stuff works best when we want it to be true, which is probably why it took so long for me to accept that I was an atheist. For a long time after I'd lost faith, I really wanted it to be true. But that's just not enough.

[Alex K]

I doubt you would find an honest response with this type of question, so asking the question is pointless.

Oh good, it sounds like you have understood the question. Can you explain to me what OP means by "accepting God as my God"? Because this combination of  words is meaningless to me without further elaboration.

[ronedee]

As I've mentioned in this thread, a lot of atheists use "our" limited knowledge of the physical world to put together a puzzle that has virtually an unlimited number of pieces!

That might be a good description for the universe under any circumstances.  It is estimated that there are as many as 30 million different species of life on the planet right now.  That's just Earth, and that's just biology.  Expanding beyond that introduces millions of other variables.  As a species that is constantly seeking knowledge and understanding, this is a situation that definitely does not suck.  We seek, we learn, we understand, we answer one question and create four new ones, and the process goes on.  In the meantime, we build a pretty impressive world around us with that knowledge.

But we really haven't found any pieces that belong to god, aside from books and experiences and anecdotes.  And as we learn about the world and the people in it, we begin to understand how and why religious belief is fostered in communities and societies.  I grew up Christian, and so I am aware of the considerable amount of "evidence" that helps to confirm our beliefs.  I am also aware of how these work, and of how our biases make them very effective.  I am equally aware that we cannot get rid of all of our mental filters --we may actually need many of them just to function from day to day.  But we do have ways of seeing past some of those filters and judging how reliable our beliefs are.  Too many of the factors that drive belief are either unreliable, can be disproved by testing, or create awkward contradictions if they are assumed to be true.

It's not that I'm closed to the idea that god exists.  It's that I won't be convinced by books and anecdotes and philosophical discussion that tries to get around the uncomfortable reality that god(s) refuse to show up and settle the question in the simplest way possible.  I think that that stuff works best when we want it to be true, which is probably why it took so long for me to accept that I was an atheist.  For a long time after I'd lost faith, I really wanted it to be true.  But that's just not enough.

I do understand your pov. But, again you relate everything to man's perception of them. Its natural. I do it too! But also, we need to search things out for ourselves. This life is kind of like a big pot of "informational stew"! We start with a base of information, and then add or subtract different ingredients to it until we feel we've reached our personal desires, and tastes. So there is; my stew, your stew and the real stew. There is truth mixed in with our information, but its tainted by our opinion. And not the naked truth!

Well, the point I'm making is: I want to know what the "real" stew is. No matter what that means! You will never hear me say I am right about anything that I believe. I am a realist in the sense that I'm not going to force any of my belief on anyone, because it's my own. Our interactions here is more productive for me getting the real answers that I want, and need. I think everyone has "something" to offer. And no matter what our position is, we have something to learn from each other. I read everyone's reply to me. Even the most obnoxious among you. They may have some tidbit of knowledge I can steal from them!

So, in keeping with that theme.... even though I've read those books, and listen to the preacher on Sunday's, I have a real dose of skepticism in my veins. I had to stop listening to men as my guide to get closer to God! I may get inspiration here and there from them but, I have my own formula in my quest for God. And that works for me! It has little to do with any religion, or anything man-made. I had to devolve the "informational stew" into its basic form, and functions. I don't look for "what" anymore, I look for "why". I found true meaning in: "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find...". I actually stumbled upon it, after sincerely asking God for a revelation. The funny part is I got the answer immediately! But I didn't understand it until many years later. The answer raised many more questions that needed to be answered first! Then the reality sunk in like a piano falling on my head. Once the pieces came together for me, there was no turning back.

And this is my main message: Without personally asking and searching earnestly, we can't ever know. You can say it all relates to "the God of the bible". But, the truth be known that we always, without exception ask "why" before we go on to find any answer! Is it such a stretch to ask it out loud at a mountain? To yell it into a canyon? To scream it to the sky? No. Because we then go out there; on that mountain, in that canyon, or into that sky in search of the answers we want, and need. So I keep asking. I keep searching! And I get answers. None for you. But, many for me! The irony is that I now feel its all by design. This is exactly the way its been planned. And that is the key to figuring it all out. It started with a simple and earnest "why"? Then searching, and looking for answers. Expecting those answers to come! I don't know: "where, when, or how", but I know "why"! And that's all that really matters.... to me anyway. When I know why, everything else is just details.

What you need to be true.... what we all need to be true is; real meaning in our lives. And the search never ends. At least for me. Because as we've both determined, there is a lot to know! More than we ever will. At least in this life.

[Tonus]

So I keep asking. I keep searching! And I get answers. None for you. But, many for me!

Just to clarify, I do get answers regarding god and the universe and the purpose of it all. They're just not the same ones you get. I think that the concept of 'ask, seek, and knock' works as a system of self-improvement and it relies on belief to work best. That belief doesn't have to be in god. It can be in the self, or in humanity, or anything else that we want to make better. I think that the way our minds works makes religious belief a predictable phenomenon, in the same way that other forms of tribalism exist, including some that seem like a parody if people didn't take them so seriously (sports fanaticism being a prime example).

[robvalue]

God knows everything we know, obviously.

But isn't it strange how that is all he knows? God never gives anyone any information they didn't already have, so the claim that he knows any more than that is mere speculation.

I can think of a four digit number, and presumably God knows what it is. He could give me a shock right now if he told one of the theists here what I'm thinking of. Does he have the information or not? What use is it if he always keeps it to himself? Line up the list of excuses why he won't do this very simple thing to try and persuade an atheist.

God is you. He agrees with you about everything. He knows everything you know, and nothing more. Go on, ask him to tell you something you didn't already know. Something real, not some drivelly horoscope bullshit. He shares your morality. But guess what? He is also exactly the same as other people who believe in him, people who disagree with you. So either God disagrees with himself, or there are different gods for each person, or none of you are actually in communication with anything at all, or your methods of communication are fundamentally flawed. The video below makes this point in a humorous fashion

Hey look, I'm the preachy atheist I'm just throwing out thoughts to try and get people's brains ticking over.

http://youtu.be/kLBDFe3mDtk

[emjay]

I suppose the most consise way I can put my take, before heading off to work and being stuck on mobile all day, is this: the statement "seek and ye shall find" is perfectly true but not for the reasons most theists think. If you seek a metaphysical meaning for your life you will find it or more specifically you will create it through the brain mechanism of bias which is not just a feature of the brain but a fundamental part of its mechanism... it's influence cannot be underestimated. The human response to horoscopes, prophecies, and prayer can all be explained in those terms.

[robvalue]

Ah, that's a good point. Considering the thing you are "seeking" is something which usually by definition cannot actually be detected due to science-proofing, then it's all too easy to convince yourself you've found it, using "special methods" not available to science. If it exists or not at this point makes no odds, it's in your mind.

Very good point! So really, you have to come to the conclusion it exists, and then just reinforce that conclusion. But if you can't come to that conclusion, then it doesn't work. Bravo.

[Cyberman]

Yep. The sceptic says "I'll believe it when I see it". The theist says "I'll see it when I believe it".

[robvalue]

As further evidence that God doesn't know more than we know, he only "heals" people in line with the expertise of the humans involved, using the technology humans have so far created. There's no properly tested amazing healing going on other than this. So again, it's just arbitrarily giving credit to something which may or may not exist. He's got the highest score ever for a non-being!