Ask one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[Won2blv]

So, in the context of sacred scripture, when the text refers to God and Jesus as the "First as the Last" and that the "First and the Last" died, we can know that the text is equating Jesus with God.

I'd go even further and concede that you can always know what you like.  You are on a mission to understand the world on your own (i.e., the bible's) terms.  Nothing can deter you as your stubbornness is indeed strong.  Sadly you are entirely lacking in faith and so permanently estranged from anything which could be god.  But don't mind me.  Go on, enlighten us some more on just how flexible your knowing can be.

I believe that religious people on the whole have a faith that almost equates to credulity. I am including JW's as well. However, I do believe that the bible had a sort of singular message and belief system. It was compiled from writers of like mind in religious matters. Now I know that there are very valid arguments for why we can't trust the "harmony" among the writers, but they had the same basis for a lot of their writings. Faith in god in the OT and faith in Jesus in the NT. I think that it is very easy to discern from the NT writings that Jesus was viewed has a divine figure, but he was not the Almighty. Sure, people can cherry pick a scripture here and there but there is no difference between that and quote mining. I demonstrated this with Rhythms where I copy and pasted a single quote from Stephen Hawking that would imply that he is a theist. But he is not. So does my cherry picking prove my point? Of course not, it proves that anything or anyone can be taken out of context easily

[Won2blv]

Nic: Did you really just ignore my attempts to help you with your issue? Or are you giving it some thought? I tried to use a discussion that was going a bit sour to make a valid point about beliefs to try and help. But instead you're still focusing on trying to undermine Becca. I thought you wanted some help?

Plus, you still haven't addressed how knocking on someone's door is waiting for them to come to you. It's the exact opposite as far as I can see!

I don't even understand the point about waiting for them to come to me? Did I mention something like that? I would never claim that they're coming to me. 

Here is why I didn't respond to the whole point overall... becca can claim what she wants. But maybe this could be a post on your website. When someone makes a claim, what is their incentive of being 100% accurate in making that claim? If we dissected her claim we can figure that 2 things are more than likely true. JW's came to her home and they pissed her off. So, now you have me and Tonus (who has no soft hearted feelings towards JWs) saying that we have never gone out that early before. I have asked other JW's and no one has ever gone out that early before. Is it possible true? Yes, it is. But in my opinion, its more than likely fabricated or simply misremembered. 

So what is the incentive for Becca to make sure to be 100% accurate?  She is pissed off and they have ruined "entire days". The vast majority of the people on this board don't like JW's, or at least there door knocking. And its been more than proven that people misremember events in their life almost instantly. Sometimes fabricating the memory in a way that is more fantastical than the original. So it is 100% possible that she remembers the experience how she describes, and I am not calling her a liar because I don't think that she is purposely trying to smear the truth, I just think she is probably wrong. But she has no real incentive to back up her claim. I could claim that I am competing in the next olympics and its not exactly an unreal claim but it could be, and is probably false. (hint. its false) Or my experience with my brother that many have claimed is a lie. I can actually back that claim up but I would choose not too for mine and his privacy. 

So then I get to your juxtaposing it to christianity... I am on this board looking for clarity in those beliefs! But since we're on the subject. If Becca started a movement and had many eyewitnesses to her claim and there were many writings attesting to it. I would further investigate the matter. The NT does have multiple claims from multiple sources. And for 2000 years there has been a movement based on it. I am going to investigate the matter. I have told you before that my faith is weaning on the emotional side. I still can make logical sense of many things. But I just don't feel like god exists. So what I am doing is investigating the claims from a non emotional state. If it was simply a claim of waking someone up at 8am then I would have brushed it off a long time ago

[Won2blv]

Plus, you still haven't addressed how knocking on someone's door is waiting for them to come to you. It's the exact opposite as far as I can see!

Sorry, I saw the confusion. In public witnesses, where you see witnesses at table or carts in a public place, that is where they don't approach anyone. Obviously door knocking is completely different

[robvalue]

OK, well thanks for responding

[The Grand Nudger]

 I demonstrated this with Rhythms where I copy and pasted a single quote from Stephen Hawking that would imply that he is a theist. 

You demonstrated how uncomfortable you were with your own words, and the doctrine of the kindgom hall...but beyond that........lol?  -I- can understand why JW's believe what they do, the way they do, it takes no convoluted shit about context for me, no doublespeak for me.  Even now you're laying more chips on the pile

Was the belly a true god, or a false god?  Was satan a true god, or a false god?  Was jesus a true god......or was jesus a false god?  Can you say the very last and remain true to the faith?  My comments (and even your very own declarations to precisely the same effect, in no uncertain terms) are uncomfortable, but they are not a caricature, nor are they false or inaccurate. I'll stand by every word that comes out of my mouth...which is more than can be said for you..huh?



(you keep implying that there is some shortage of verses regarding christs divinity, or the nature of the godhead..that a person must cherry pick to believe something...while I would certainly agree that people -do- cherry pick their beliefs from the text...there's really no shortage with regards to the subject you're discussing, and continually responding as though this was the case is either an honest mistake - or the effects of your indoctrination. Perhaps, as a doubting seeker, that would interest you, perhaps not, you're the one with faith problems, not I.)

[Randy Carson]

No, but they -feel- like monotheists, to hear them tell it.  It;s one of those hot button things that can get them off your doorstep in a hurry (as we've seen).  JW's, btw, effectively prey (no, not pray) on catholics falling out of the faith.  That's their bread and butter both geographically and demographically.  You might find that their apologetics often take the form of "an argument against catholicism".  They have their reasons (some well argued, granted).  They don't often realize that it is the -disinterest- of catholics (particularly young catholics) in the catechism, and not -the lack of scriptural justification- that leads to a situation whereby those tactics can be effective.  So they keep doing what works, picking off the people who are weakest in their knowledge of the faith - even though they are a very unique -non monotheistic (though not overtly polytheistic)- offshoot of christendom and would not, thusly, seem to have any further credibility to those monotheistic christians they ardently desire to convert.  

That christians can be and often are hapless rubes ought to go without saying, but this relationship really drives that point home.   

*I can give you the polytheistic rationalizations..but they're all convoluted, meandering...and won't change your mind, btw.  In a nutshell, JW's believe that Jehovah God is the only god -worthy of worship-....that Jehovah God is the most powerful of the gods, not that Jehovah is the only god which exists.  Simple enough?

Well, I've got half dozen books on JW's on the shelf next to my small collection books on Mormonism, masonry, Eastern Orthodoxy, and atheism, etc. Despite the protestations of some here to the contrary, I do try to do a bit of homework before posting.

And, yes, JW's do have a special animus towards Catholicism...but that's nothing new. The darkness hates the light. "It burns us, precious."

JW's say that Jesus was really Michael the Archangel...thus, a created being. But unless I missed something really big in my reading and conversations with JW's, I never understood them to hold that they acknowledge more than one God.

Now, Mormons do EXACTLY what you have suggested...is it possible you have these two groups confused?

[The Grand Nudger]

Nica here has, himself, acknowledged this, on the boards, for all to see.  It's a sort of wink wink hush hush thing, apparently.  They don;t get taken to task for it often, they wear their christian camo, no one expects them to believe in such a strange thing..lol. You would interpret the claim entoirely differentl;y. If I said "jesus is a god" - you would agree, eh- but you would conceptualize that as a statement of gods tri-unity (lol)? JW's don't. They believe that Jesus is a god, and that jehovah is a god, but that jesus and jehovah are not the same entity. Unless my math is off, that's two gods, minimum. Yes, they also believe that jesus is michael. Big g gods and little g gods, Randy.

A JW, for example, will ask you to agree that the bible is authoritative (..that;s the pickup line) - but then prevaricate over those parts of the text which they do not feel comfortable with. All of a sudden it's context, and nuance, cherry picking, and ":well, it doesn't actually mean what it says". This is -common- with the religious........in my experience as an observer. There's even a word for it. Dissonance. It had never occurred to Nica (nor was he taught, from within the JW framework) that the belief structure was polytheistic. That it is polytheistic -by definition- is a simple statement of fact....but watch em argue the definitions.....or, my favorite, denounce their translation and the articles of their faith three times before the rooster crows before going right back to:

"do you agree that the bible is authoratative" No, sir, I don't...and neither do you, apparently. On this count, though, I sympathize entirely with the apologist, trying to make lemonade out of lemons.

[Randy Carson]

And they've got:

"They believe that God created Michael the Archangel (inferior to God)
and through him later created the rest of creation. At a point in time,
Michael became man and was named Jesus. He was sinless and obedient to God.
He died for the sins of mankind. When he was
raised from the dead, only his spirit rose, not his body. As such, he resumed his identity
as Michael the Archangel.

Picked from random site with apparent Catholic leanings:
http://www.htdiocese.org/LinkClick.aspx?...7&mid=1476

I'm not real conversant with Catholic teachings, but I don't think it includes this where angel becomes man becomes angel+dead body.

Do you have any way to quantify any of this? 
Like a god meter or something?  Not the 'feeling in your soul' but something I could build and get replicable results from.

Julia-

You are correct. JW's believe that Jesus and Michael are one and the same.

For this reason, they even changed John 1:1 as follows:

New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New World Translation - JW's
In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god

However, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (parent organization) has no real Greek scholars and no recognized scholars accept their translation. But that was of little importance to the JW's. Jesus cannot be God (as John actually says), so they literally added to the text in order to make it fit their theology.

[The Grand Nudger]

You wouldn't have to -argue- the trinity with the NIV translation..huh (it;s right there in the black and white)?  They are non-orthodox christians.....they don't believe in the trinity.  That line had to go...but -their alteration- to that line is why a JW has to say "Jesus is -a- god"..............this is what makes it a favorite of mine, personally. Had they not made this change, and had they not claimed the pretense of scriptural authority, they would not have to make such an openly polytheistic, and non-conformist claim about christ and the judeo-christian godhead

[Tonus]

*I can give you the polytheistic rationalizations..but they're all convoluted, meandering...and won't change your mind, btw.  In a nutshell, JW's believe that Jehovah God is the only god -worthy of worship-....that Jehovah God is the most powerful of the gods, not that Jehovah is the only god which exists.  Simple enough?

Hmmm, never thought of it that way, though it makes sense based on the way the NWT makes Jesus into "a god." I think that JWs see the term "god" in both "big G" and "little g" variants. I think it's 1 Corinthians 2:4 (or is it 4:2? Been a while, heh) where the devil is referred to as "the god of this system of things." Jehovah is the "big G God" and Jesus and everyone else are "little g gods." But it gets muddled, because Jesus is described as being pretty much like any god, able to create things and kick ass and walk on water and do things that every other little g god doesn't have in his toolbox. Quite interesting, really.

(Then again, I think the OT is easily interpreted to imply that Yahweh was simply the baddest big G God on the block, not that he was the only one. But I didn't see it that way when I was a JW.)