Thoughts on euthanasia

[Longhorn]

Sure, establishing the legality of euthanasia is going to bring out some issues, but that's true for virtually anything becoming legalised.

And as has been argued, it should be performed only with consent from a terminally ill patient who does not suffer from any mental condition making them unable to give that consent. The doctors wouldn't just get to pick and choose who lives and who dies, that's insane.

[robvalue]

Greene: Sure, but in such a scenario couldn't they just push through this basic Euthenasia plus whatever else they wanted anyway? If maniacs are writing the rules we are doomed, no matter what the state is when they get in.

I'm not sure it's a valid counter argument to particular points. But then I fully admit I'm not up on legal matters so I could be being naive.

[Pyrrho]

Greene: Sure, but in such a scenario couldn't they just push through this basic Euthenasia plus whatever else they wanted anyway? If maniacs are writing the rules we are doomed, no matter what the state is when they get in.

I'm not sure it's a valid counter argument to particular points. But then I fully admit I'm not up on legal matters so I could be being naive.

If bad people are making the rules, one will tend to have bad rules.  Yes, that is true, but is irrelevant to the discussion, just as you say.

Right now, there isn't a proper mechanism in place (in most countries) for how to deal with this issue.  And that means that people act in ways that are not in accordance with good rules, as they don't have good rules to follow.

Quite frankly, I have no problems with people being kept alive suffering, IF THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT.  But I do have a problem with that being forced on people who don't want it.  People should have a choice for themselves, and there should be a mechanism in place to deal with that.  For example, there should be a form one fills out when one enters the hospital, when one gets a driver's liscence, when one files one's tax forms, or some other such way to get people's preferences, in writing, preferably long before it is needed, so that not only are the individual's rights respected, they can be known to be gathered before there is any mental deterioration that might make the person unfit to make such decisions.  Then the doctors should be required by law to honor the written preferences of the individual.

I say, people should have a choice on such things, and I wish that everyone who does not want to allow people to make a choice for themselves would just fucking die immediately, as we do not need fascist asshole sadists torturing others.  If you want to live suffering as long as possible, fine, but do not try to force your will on my life.

[comet]

Greene: Sure, but in such a scenario couldn't they just push through this basic Euthenasia plus whatever else they wanted anyway? If maniacs are writing the rules we are doomed, no matter what the state is when they get in.

I'm not sure it's a valid counter argument to particular points. But then I fully admit I'm not up on legal matters so I could be being naive.

If bad people are making the rules, one will tend to have bad rules.  Yes, that is true, but is irrelevant to the discussion, just as you say.

Right now, there isn't a proper mechanism in place (in most countries) for how to deal with this issue.  And that means that people act in ways that are not in accordance with good rules, as they don't have good rules to follow.

Quite frankly, I have no problems with people being kept alive suffering, IF THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT.  But I do have a problem with that being forced on people who don't want it.  People should have a choice for themselves, and there should be a mechanism in place to deal with that.  For example, there should be a form one fills out when one enters the hospital, when one gets a driver's liscence, when one files one's tax forms, or some other such way to get people's preferences, in writing, preferably long before it is needed, so that not only are the individual's rights respected, they can be known to be gathered before there is any mental deterioration that might make the person unfit to make such decisions.  Then the doctors should be required by law to honor the written preferences of the individual.

I say, people should have a choice on such things, and I wish that everyone who does not want to allow people to make a choice for themselves would just fucking die immediately, as we do not need fascist asshole sadists torturing others.  If you want to live suffering as long as possible, fine, but do not try to force your will on my life.

sums it up rather nicely.  let the friggen family decide for themselves.

[Thackerie]

mine died in the year 2000. Not a day goes by without a thought of him.  And believe me when he told us "you people are keeping me alive for you." I understood what he meant.  I'da done him myself.  While it was fresh, I kept one thing of his that reminds me of him.  It was his handshake.  If I close my eyes and think I can feel it to this day.  

hang in there guy.  As you go on, look around for the reminders of him.  they can't reliably repeat them, but people report them all the time. Heck, if it works in QM it can work in easing the transition for you. 

The weirdest thing is that it keeps slipping my mind actually, then I'll think something like "oh I'll ask Dad what he thinks" and then it'll hit me again, I can't ask him. That's the worst bit.

I'm trying to look out for my Nana though, losing your child is every parents' worst nightmare I imagine.

I still find myself thinking "oh I'll ask Dad what he thinks." My dad died in 1998.

[Ravenshire]

I also have to vote against legalising euthanasia.
My line of thinking is 'what happens when the legislation is written by the BNP or UKIP?'
Will it become legal to have people euthanised for being the wrong ethnic group, sexuality, or not believing in the state religion?

I don't think anyone here is advocating allowing others to euthanize healthy people, but to allow the terminally ill to decide for themselves. Personally, given a no hope fatal situation, I want the choice and I want to be able to have my loved ones with me when I go (for those who could handle it). Under current laws, if I gather my family around me and overdose on narcotics, they will most likely me investigated, possibly even prosecuted for accessory to murder, even if I managed to secure the drugs without their help. Simply attending a suicide in most jurisdictions is a crime. But, we can all gather together to watch mom/dad/grandma/grandpa suffer for days, weeks, even months.

Sure, some could be coerced into a suicide they don't really want, but under current law, many are coerced into unneeded suffering to protect their loved ones.

[Ravenshire]

Well, even if they do get into power, they can't just rewrite stuff to be whatever they want. I wouldn't expect them to receive enough backing to do something as ridiculous as that.

1) I would point out the difference between improbable and impossible.

2) Once in power with a majority that is precisely what they can do, they could even bypass the House of Lords with current legislation.

Just because you don't expect such a situation to occur doesn't mean that such an eventuality should not be planned for.

If insane people get into office with a majority, it won't matter what sane laws are already on the books. If there's nothing already there for them to twist, they will simply move ahead anyway.

As long as we have a reasonable society, the truly insane won't make it into positions of power. If society falls apart to the point that they can, you're fucked no matter what.

[Ravenshire]

The weirdest thing is that it keeps slipping my mind actually, then I'll think something like "oh I'll ask Dad what he thinks" and then it'll hit me again, I can't ask him. That's the worst bit.

I'm trying to look out for my Nana though, losing your child is every parents' worst nightmare I imagine.

I still find myself thinking "oh I'll ask Dad what he thinks." My dad died in 1998.

Mom died in 2006 and I still do it too. It get easier and less frequent, but I'm beginning to wonder if it ever stops.

[SteelCurtain]

This legislation exists. In Oregon and Washington, the Death with Dignity Act was passed in 1993, showing it is possible to get the language correct.

Although Oregon’s groundbreaking law remains widely popular, the occurrence of a hastened death is relatively rare, averaging just more than 44 hastened deaths per year over a 15-year span.

In 2012, the most recent year for which we have an annual statistical report, terminally ill patients who died after ingesting medication under the Act accounted for 0.2 percent of all deaths in Oregon. The top three concerns patients expressed to their attending physicians when requesting medication under the Act reflect the patients’ desire to maintain control over their final days. Of the end-of-life concerns expressed, the least common was “financial implications of treatment.”

Reviewing 15 years of data in the aggregate, 1,050 terminally ill patients have received prescriptions, and 673 of these patients have ingested the prescribed medications to hasten their deaths, while 377 chose not to. Over 15 years, only 2 percent of the people who used the law did not have insurance coverage. In 2012, excluding those few for which insurance status was unknown, all of the participants were covered by some form of insurance.

http://www.americanbar.org/publications/...y_act.html

[comet]

The weirdest thing is that it keeps slipping my mind actually, then I'll think something like "oh I'll ask Dad what he thinks" and then it'll hit me again, I can't ask him. That's the worst bit.

I'm trying to look out for my Nana though, losing your child is every parents' worst nightmare I imagine.

I still find myself thinking "oh I'll ask Dad what he thinks." My dad died in 1998.

yeah, I agree, it is weird that Yeauxleaux is thinking that. But I understand the tactic of minimizing, or trying to strike a nerve, to get off of the observations that counters the safety net of one's world view.

Many of us carry lessons from our parents from our childhood that help us through our adult life. I can't ask him, he's dead. But he was a good man so many of my choices lead directly back to my upbringing. On many levels this is a valid claim.

I used a real life example of where euthanasia would have been clearly acceptable. The "innocent victim" of "being forced" to live under somebody's else outlook on the gift of life because flat out fear as the real base of what amounts to a baseless opinion( s) was my pop. My dad and I understood what and why he wanted to be left alone. He understood what he wanted. What better way to preserve his last act of being his type man (a ww2 paratrooper) then him exiting stage left on his own two legs. Instead, I was forced, by others, to hold him down while looking straight into his eyes, he was still very lucid during this process, as his lungs could not provide enough oxygen and he went comatose. He was saying " let me up, let me up, "comet" I am x years old and I need to catch my breath".

Thanks for the memory, you ignorant sleepers.

so, the question becomes what is am acceptable failure rate? how many "murders" vs. how many regular people helping loved on pass as comfortable as possible? Lucky I am such a jerk, that could have haunted me for years instead of months. I'll never forget his eyes, I mean we were nose to nose, He was looking into the abyss. I hope I handle at well as he did. But damn, I do wish we brushed his teeth that day.