Free will/evil/punishment

[ILuvGorillas]

I know this has probably been discussed alot on here but wanted to know your opinion on the way i view it
 
I was recently watching this very horrific serial killer case on YT where this guy tortured and killed kids and i see in the comments how he is evil and will burn in hell etc. Now being an atheist i obv don't believe in hell but I am still torn between just how things like free will/evil should be viewed. The way i see it is anything you do/how you act is predetermined by your genetics and environment and that even tho it may seem like you are in control of yourself, in reality that's not how it is.
 
Like yes, the guy was calculating and obviously knew it was wrong but something drove him to do it and I believe it all just comes back to nature and mental illness. anything you do good or bad shouldn't be attributed to your own 100x doing if im making sense? even tho yes it is you,....but its all luck.

[bennyboy]

This is my problem with the free will discussions here-- they are too cherry-picking.
1) Free will is an illusion, so nobody could have done other than they did.
2) That guy's a child rapist. Cut off his dick, execute him, fucking make him pay.

I've seen the same people make both arguments but in different threads, and to me, this seems like they don't really believe what they've said about free will.

[Exian]

Still gotta lock the guy up (even if that's just an illusory choice). Call him evil, sick, misunderstood, or an angel, but remove him from society.

[JuliaL]

I know this has probably been discussed alot on here but wanted to know your opinion on the way i view it
 
I was recently watching this very horrific serial killer case on YT where this guy tortured and killed kids and i see in the comments how he is evil and will burn in hell etc. Now being an atheist i obv don't believe in hell but I am still torn between just how things like free will/evil should be viewed. The way i see it is anything you do/how you act is predetermined by your genetics and environment and that even tho it may seem like you are in control of yourself, in reality that's not how it is.
 
Like yes, the guy was calculating and obviously knew it was wrong but something drove him to do it and I believe it all just comes back to nature and mental illness. anything you do good or bad shouldn't be attributed to your own 100x doing if im making sense? even tho yes it is you,....but its all luck.

If everything isl pre-determined, then the collective action of human society will condemn the serial killer and punishment will ensue.
But only if he's caught.
Religion gives a false, but pleasant hope that the tyrant and the murderer will see justice for their crimes.  People like the pleasant, it's nice.

What I question is from where comes the morality that led the guy to "obviously" know his actions were wrong.
Morality is a natural, self replicating pattern subject to natural selection that occurs at multiple levels.  Those societies in which the members had the sort of innate drives towards protecting their young and not killing anyone of their group prospered better and replaced societies where sociopaths were everywhere.
If it was a bear that killed children (e.g. for insulting a bald person) would the bear think its actions were wrong?  I doubt it. We don't find humans killing bear cubs as bad as bears killing children I expect that bears don't find killing humans as evil as humans killing bear cubs.

[Aroura]

Bennyboy tries to shut down the conversation before it even gets started by siting someone who had an illogical reaction sometime in some other thread at some unspecified time. Check.

Thread is on track.

But seriously, I agree with Exian. Although I personally believe freewill is an illusion, we still have to keep society safe. However, there is no reason to punish just for punishments sake (make him suffer, he made them suffer!), that's not helping anyone, even the victims families. If treatment or rehabilitation is available or possible, that is always the better option. If it is not, then humane prisons are the current existing alternative. The death penalty and other punishments are a remnant of our barbaric past, and should be relegated to that past.

[bennyboy]

Still gotta lock the guy up (even if that's just an illusory choice). Call him evil, sick, misunderstood, or an angel, but remove him from society.

If there's no free will, you don't have to do anything except sit back and watch the show.

[bennyboy]

Bennyboy tries to shut down the conversation before it even gets started by siting someone who had an illogical reaction sometime in some other thread at some unspecified time.  Check.

Did I do something to you in a past life? Well, don't get pissy about it-- I couldn't have acted otherwise.

But seriously, I agree with Exian.  Although I personally believe freewill is an illusion, we still have to keep society safe.

I think what you mean to say is-- it is in our nature as evolved creatures to keep society safe, and so we do. . . unless we don't.

[robvalue]

Hello, welcome

The biggest problem is defining exactly what "free will" means.

But in casual terms, if there is no free will then we make no more decisions about punishment than the criminal does about their crime. We do what we cannot avoid doing, there is no room for a real judgement or decision. It's all smoke and mirrors. It seems we generally lock people up for crimes, so that's how the dominos happen to fall.

If there is at least some degree of free will, then it makes sense that we still lock people up for crimes. So really, there's nothing to worry about on this score in my opinion.

I would say the amount of control we have, if any, is probably vastly less than what it appears. Like you say there are so many factors that go into our behaviour, many of which are entirely beyond our control. If anything, I feel more and more like I have no real control, like I am an observer to myself.

http://youtu.be/oyvbKbGCeWY

[bennyboy]

Wow cool video.

[robvalue]

Thanks, that's my cousin's band He wrote the lyrics based on the talks we used to have about determinism and such.