Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 29, 2024, 1:57 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Hostage to fear
RE: Hostage to fear
(July 26, 2015 at 3:30 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:


Wow. Just wow. We went over this list, too, Randy. In that other thread. And now you're dragging it out here. Fucking brilliant.

Facepalm Clap Dead Horse Violin Jerkoff Walk the plank! 

So your text sources...I looked them up the last time we were having this exact same argument. They're either Christian sources, some other form of scripture that might have occasion to mention Jesus to provide counter-religion (the Talmud, for instance), a broad interpretation of what's written, or just a straight up forgery (see: Josephus and probably Tacitus). You have NO non-Christian, non-scriptural evidence to support the existence of a human basis for the Jesus of Nazareth character. None that isn't hotly disputed, anyway.

As to your scholars...I am fully aware of the sheer number of mainstream scholars in comparison to Christ Mythicists. There was a time in this world when most "scientists" believed the universe was geo-centric. I do not give a fuck about the mainstream opinion because it is a faulty claim based on a biased interpretation of the evidence at hand. Even atheist scholars are likely to support the idea of the historicity of Jesus on the bias of not wanting to be ostracized by the rest of their academic community. Nevertheless, there are many scholars who stand by the theory of Christ Mythicism, and having heard both interpretations of the evidence in question, the interpretation of the Christ Mythicists seems to me to be the most reasonably sound.

And again, the main fact you keep dodging (and have been dodging all throughout the various pages of this argument) is that regardless of whether it's reasonable to believe that a mortal, Jewish preacher named Yeshua used to exist 2,000 years ago, there is still no reason to believe that he was any more magical than you are (and you, Randy, are not magical; I know because I'm a wizard).
Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)

Also, I has a website: www.RedbeardThePink.com
Reply
RE: Hostage to fear
(July 26, 2015 at 8:16 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Alright, Spacetime, I see what the problem is. You don't want to be seen agreeing with the Christian apologist now that you've come out as an atheist, but my questions are so simple and innocuous that you couldn't help going along...at first. But then your Spidey senses started tingling because you realized that there must be a gotcha coming at the end, so now you're tying yourself up in knots overthinking your response to question #3 because you can't for the life of you figure out what's coming in question #4. Well, I'm going to put you out of your misery...it's just another simple, innocuous question:

Question #4

If an all-powerful creator exists, would it be possible for him to grant us full moral freedom without the ability to choose evil?

Now, remember that you said in answer to question #1 that you did not want restrictions placed on your ability to make moral choices. In your response to question #2, you agreed that having freedom to make moral choices is a good thing. You tried to avoid answering to question #3 (for reasons just explained) by arguing that "good" is not objective, but it is intuitively obvious that freedom to make moral choices requires that we can select from a full-range of options which includes some "good" (like baking cookies for a shut-in neighbor or going out on a patrol in place of a buddy who is due to rotate stateside in a couple of days) and some "bad" (like murder and rape).

So, restating Question #4: Is God's omnipotence capable of creating a scenario in which we have complete freedom to make moral choices while at the same time limiting those choices to only good options?

Can God grant us full moral freedom while simultaneously granting no possibility of doing evil?

+++

The answer to these variations of Question #4 is no. Although God is all-powerful, it is not possible for Him to grant us free will and the ability to make moral choices while simultaneously limiting our choices to the "good" only. Limiting our freedom would itself be a bad thing, and God does not make bad things.

Consequently, we have been given free will and the potential to choose to do evil; but the actualization of that potential is our decision, not God's. We could freely choose to do only good, but we choose to do bad or evil things all the time. The responsibility for those choices is on us, not God.

In summary, there is no logical contradiction in the fact that both God and evil exist, and the possibility of choosing evil is a necessary condition of having true freedom to make moral choices. Thus, it is simply a false notion that an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good God would be able or even want to eliminate evil for the reasons we have seen in this exercise.

While your concerns about problem of evil and suffering in the world are understandable on an emotional level, they do not justify the complete loss of faith in God which you seem to be struggling with, and the healing of the pain you are experiencing can only come from Christ Himself.

You need MORE God - not less, Spacetime.

I've had your god, decided the relationship was one-sided, and tossed it into the bin with all the other gods I've tossed away throughout the course of my life. Despite this, take comfort in knowing that I don't respect your opinion... at all, because it's completely ignorant.

Your problem is that you've not defined the terms "good" and "evil". We could have, this entire time, been talking about entirely separate ideas; condemning each other's for falling short of our own when we have no idea what one another are talking about.

Define "good" and "evil".

And regarding the pain I felt... I didn't suspect it would take this long... but I no longer feel any sort of negative feelings regarding giving up trying to have faith. It all seems so ridiculous now... I'm happy to report.
Reply
RE: Hostage to fear
Our choices are incredibly limited as it is. We could have the good choices expanded a million times over, and the bad choices removed so that they never even occur to us. The possibility for harm need not exist at all. Why are we designed so that we can be harmed?

Life would be grand for all!
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Do my parents fear that I'll leave the faith? Der/die AtheistIn 120 22778 January 14, 2018 at 2:55 am
Last Post: Abaddon_ire
  Ex-Christians: How do you lose your fear of hell? KiwiNFLFan 29 5513 November 20, 2017 at 2:07 pm
Last Post: purplepurpose
  Irational fear of hell still naggs me from time to time Arsoo 103 27516 November 9, 2017 at 1:53 pm
Last Post: downbeatplumb
  Fear your mind for it is hell urlawyer 17 3741 April 23, 2015 at 7:09 am
Last Post: robvalue
  Why do I need to fear God? clergyman 20 3892 June 16, 2014 at 2:38 pm
Last Post: Brian37
  Catholic diocese refuses to sell land out of fear of gay marriage, but... Esquilax 14 4688 April 15, 2014 at 12:13 am
Last Post: Esquilax
  Christians, prove your minds aren't molested by fear. Mudhammam 144 32594 March 8, 2014 at 4:32 am
Last Post: Mudhammam
  Why fear GOD? Castle 14 4931 September 12, 2011 at 10:38 am
Last Post: Castle
  God, Christianity, Control, & Fear (continued) ShnogTrip 2 2018 July 30, 2010 at 2:53 pm
Last Post: ShnogTrip
  God, Christianity, Control, & Fear ShnogTrip 75 34809 July 17, 2010 at 2:37 pm
Last Post: downbeatplumb



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)