Answers needed

[Louis Chérubin]

This all got me thinking.

Let's say there is a supernatural being, and it wants to communicate with me. It could use whatever funny powers it has to write messages in the air, right in front of me. It would be manipulating the natural world. I couldn't see the being itself, because our light particles cannot bounce off it.

Now. I could speak back, and let's say it could hear me. (Not entirely sure how, if our sound waves cannot affect the supernatural...) It could then "talk" back to me by moulding sound waves in our natural reality, so I hear a voice. In this way, I could communicate with this supernatural being.

But here's the problem. I can't know for sure what is causing these messages or sounds. Since they are entirely natural, I can't distinguish between a supernatural being causing them, or some natural being/force using technology I've never experienced. Except for appealing to incredulity, I cannot logically deduce it's from supernatural causation. There may well be amazing powerful beings that are natural but I can't see or experience in any normal way, which could perform such feats. And maybe one day we would create the technology to be able to measure and experience these natural beings. But if they are supernatural, then we never can. And we can't know that we will never be able to interact with the previously mentioned hypothetical supernatural being; hence it remains a mystery whether it is or is not natural.

This all rests on my personal definition of supernatural from my website. If instead you simply refer to what is known at any particular time, then any unexplainable thing could be called supernatural as a placeholder, although I don't see the point. It's just another way of saying unexplained.

I think you've jumped to the authenticity of supernatural revelation. That is a very different matter than the simple existence of a supernatural being, which doesn't require revelation at all. I find there are good reasons to believe in the authenticity of the Bible as God's communication to man, but ultimately faith is required. I've come to really appreciate how the Bible makes perfect sense of human struggle and the whole narrative of world history.

In regards to the origin of the universe though, I don't want to be caught in the quagmire of this reasoning: "The natural world is all that exists, so the natural world must have been formed through natural causes." My rationality cannot accept this as valid. Instead I think: "The natural world exists. What is the most probable cause?"

Anyways, stay cool across the pond. 

[Cato]

In regards to the origin of the universe though, I don't want to be caught in the quagmire of this reasoning: "The natural world is all that exists, so the natural world must have been formed through natural causes." My rationality cannot accept this as valid. Instead I think: "The natural world exists. What is the most probable cause?"

Positing god as the creator of the universe with absolutely no evidence for this thing's existence renders a probability of zero. Simply an argument from ignorance.

[robvalue]

Whoah, where did the bible come from! I was talking about still being sceptical about actual words appearing in the air in front of me being supernatural

Not sure where "God" came from either; something supernatural isn't automatically God. It could be a crappy little snotty kid in supernature land, who happened to figure out a way to scribble on our reality.

But sure, if you think there is good reason to think the bible is God's attempt to communicate with us, I accept that you believe that but I couldn't disagree more. I doubt there's much point me going into why, but thanks very much for the discussion and taking the time to see my perspective! You've prompted me to think about the matter in more depth.

[robvalue]

Now...

If these words appeared in front of me and no one else was around to see them, and it never happened again, I would assume the most likely explanation is I had some sort of mental glitch: a hallucination, a daydream, a breakdown, whatever.

If I continued to see them and no one else could see them who was around me, I'd assume I had most likely got very serious mental problems with recurring delusions.

If everyone else could see the writing too, and people could look at it to verify it whenever they wanted, then we could talk about what was going on. It would still be impossible to conclude it was caused by supernature, although it would very likely turn science on its head at least.

The problem is, virtually all "personal experience" falls into the first two categories, and as such it is highly unreliable and most likely human error/imagination/delusion. There is never any evidence to verify. I've heard loads of people who are convinced their religion is true based on a single "experience". To be honest, the idea that you'd go through your life without having a weird experience that didn't literally happen would be very unlikely, and your delusions are going to play into the mythology you've been saturated with. I've had plenty of them, such as auditory and visual hallucinations. If I was of a superstitious inclination, I could have easily given these massive significance and used them to affirm my already held irrational beliefs.

[abaris]

My rationality cannot accept this as valid. Instead I think: "The natural world exists. What is the most probable cause?"

So you don't understand something and fill that lack of understanding with god? I pointed it out in another thread, that's a cave man mentality. Looking up at the sun and the moon and for lack of understanding, let's call them gods.

[Louis Chérubin]

Now...

If these words appeared in front of me and no one else was around to see them, and it never happened again, I would assume the most likely explanation is I had some sort of mental glitch: a hallucination, a daydream, a breakdown, whatever.

If I continued to see them and no one else could see them who was around me, I'd assume I had most likely got very serious mental problems with recurring delusions.

If everyone else could see the writing too, and people could look at it to verify it whenever they wanted, then we could talk about what was going on. It would still be impossible to conclude it was caused by supernature, although it would very likely turn science on its head at least.

The problem is, virtually all "personal experience" falls into the first two categories, and as such it is highly unreliable and most likely human error/imagination/delusion. There is never any evidence to verify. I've heard loads of people who are convinced their religion is true based on a single "experience". To be honest, the idea that you'd go through your life without having a weird experience that didn't literally happen would be very unlikely, and your delusions are going to play into the mythology you've been saturated with. I've had plenty of them, such as auditory and visual hallucinations. If I was of a superstitious inclination, I could have easily given these massive significance and used them to affirm my already held irrational beliefs.

I guess I was rather confused why you were talking about words appearing in front of you. Your last paragraph does help clarify your thought process for me, though. As I've already said, my belief in the existence of a supernatural power is not in any way derived from a feeling that my "religion is true based on a single 'experience.'" I can deduce that a supernatural power exists simply from verifiable facts presented by nature.

Now that I think of it, I don't think I have ever actually met someone like you described. Am I hugely misunderstanding you, or is this a UK phenomenon?   It could be a serious epidemic of hallucinations! 

[Cato]

I can deduce that a supernatural power exists simply from verifiable facts presented by nature.

[Cephus]

Duplicate message

[Cephus]

My rationality cannot accept this as valid. Instead I think: "The natural world exists. What is the most probable cause?"

That's called the argument from ignorance.  It is a logical fallacy for a reason.

[Longhorn]

I think you've jumped to the authenticity of supernatural revelation. That is a very different matter than the simple existence of a supernatural being, which doesn't require revelation at all.

Jibbers Crabst almighty. Not this again

Everything that exists in the natural world is natural. Supernatural is beyond nature. Nature is everything in existence. Supernatural = nonexistent.

Nothing that exists can be beyond nature or not follow the natural law. If it exists, it is natural. If it behaves in a way that doesn't fit the laws of nature we've so far discovered, that doesn't mean it is beyond natural law altogether, but rather that we have not yet described the law governing the phenomenon. If god exists, he is by all means natural. The violation of existing natural laws would then be a natural law in itself.

Supernatural is an empty concept. It cannot possibly exist.