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RE: Honest Question to Atheists - Best Argument?
July 20, 2015 at 10:37 am
(July 17, 2015 at 2:02 am)SamS Wrote: Has there ever been a Christian argument, or something a Christian said, that made you, for even a split second, question whether your current atheistic stance is right?
I try to not dogmatically adhere to any idea I might hold and to at least assess that validity and soundness of an argument, and to that effect I suppose you might be able to make the case that my willingness to at least consider theistic arguments could fall into this category, but upon a brief inspection of the argument or claim I have yet to have any of them stand up to scrutiny or be what I would consider "convincing."
Quote:Even if the argument turned out to be completely fabricated or disprovable, did it at the very least draw you closer to believing the Bible is God's Word and all that such a belief entails?
"Draw me closer"? No. Considering whether a claim might or might not be true is a far cry from that claim drawing me in.
Quote:If not, has there ever been an argument that you didn't know how to answer, or that surprised you against your expectations?
What has repeatedly surprised me about theistic arguments (I'm currently in a private theistic debate/discussion right now) is how frequently theists in general beg the question of their god's/gods' existence, how unwilling they are to even consider the possibility that if there is a god, it might not be their god, and, in my case, how completely and totally ignorant my theist is of the standard refutations to her claims - not even just the atheistic refutations, but the mainstream scientific refutations, the ones that come down to matters of fact in which she can be demonstrated to be dead wrong about every aspect of the crap she just spouted. I mean, c'mon! Google is a thing, spend 15 minutes on it before hitting the send button! 
(July 20, 2015 at 9:09 am)popsthebuilder Wrote: I don't reach for anything but the truth. It is exceedingly simple. Thought that evokes positive emotion which is energy is good. Thought that evokes negative energy in any form is bad, mkay?
The lack of action, or productive use of said energy is chaos. The waste of knowledge and/ or energy.
Seems simple to me. Please attempt not to stereotype.
![[Image: image_thumb.png]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.exunoplura.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F06%2Fimage_thumb.png)
Teenaged X-Files obsession + Bermuda Triangle episode + Self-led school research project = Atheist.
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RE: Honest Question to Atheists - Best Argument?
July 21, 2015 at 4:38 am
Not really. Most arguments for the existence of god are circular, and predicated on the expectation that you already believe. "God exists because God exists," or more commonly, "God exists because the bible says he does, and God wrote the bible." My step-father, who is a relatively devout Christian, will occasionally attempt to persuade me to believe, but I punch holes in every argument he comes up with like paper. He's one of those who believes because it was how he was raised, not because he actually considered the matter from an objective or rational standpoint and came to the conclusion that he believed of his own accord. He has virtually no explanation for every question about religion that I ask him, even simple ones like, "If God created man in his own image, doesn't that mean he created gay people? And why would he hate them because of how he made them?"
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RE: Honest Question to Atheists - Best Argument?
July 21, 2015 at 4:51 am
Nope, all arguments from the Christian stand point have flaws and holes and many ways to approach these, But in saying that I was once stumped by a person whom followed the Norse gods it was more the skill and charismatic ability of then the argument
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RE: Honest Question to Atheists - Best Argument?
July 21, 2015 at 4:53 am
That is all it is in debates these days. The last thing a christian apologetic wants to do is deal with facts or put forward a coherent argument.
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RE: Honest Question to Atheists - Best Argument?
July 25, 2015 at 11:11 am
Ok. Back up. Back out of our observable Universe.
What's left?
The hypothesis of quantization.
Now, through this hypothesis we can retionalize not only miracles, but the existence of God as literally everything at all places at all times. If everything is generally the same everywhere, then seamingly unprovable concepts of God are completely plausable.
Big bang? Let there be light.
Chew on that candy kiddos.
Thoughts?
Not hate mongering, real, free thought please.
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RE: Honest Question to Atheists - Best Argument?
July 25, 2015 at 11:15 am
(This post was last modified: July 25, 2015 at 11:16 am by robvalue.)
My real thought is I have no idea what any of that means. I recognize some individual words and phrases, but can't follow the train of thought.
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RE: Honest Question to Atheists - Best Argument?
July 25, 2015 at 1:11 pm
(This post was last modified: July 25, 2015 at 1:12 pm by Pyrrho.)
(July 25, 2015 at 11:11 am)popsthebuilder Wrote: Ok. Back up. Back out of our observable Universe.
What's left?
The hypothesis of quantization.
Now, through this hypothesis we can retionalize not only miracles,
No. Many miracle stories are still from primitive, superstitious people, so we have no reason to believe them. We also know about magicians, who seem to do miracles, but do not do miracles. Stupid and ignorant people can be fooled by magicians into believing some miracle really occurred. So whatever is beyond the observable universe (if anything) does not make the miracle stories believable.
And even if you were right about this (and you are obviously not; see previous paragraph), you would have zero justification for singling out the miracle stories of one religion rather than the miracle stories of any other religion, or those miracle stories not associated with any religion. Are you really silly enough to believe every ridiculous story that anyone tells you?
Whatever is beyond the observable universe, we still observe regularities in the observable universe. Any claim that violates the regularities is automatically suspect, as usually (or always) things happen in the regular way.
(July 25, 2015 at 11:11 am)popsthebuilder Wrote: but the existence of God as literally everything at all places at all times.
If everything is generally the same everywhere, then seamingly unprovable concepts of God are completely plausable.
Big bang? Let there be light.
Chew on that candy kiddos.
Thoughts?
Not hate mongering, real, free thought please.
Even if there is something beyond the observable universe, you still don't get a personal god out of that, or anything with a consciousness. You are just making stuff up, and have no basis for saying that any of it is real.
Your argument is essentially an argumentum ad ignorantiam. Your argument is essentially:
We don't know what is beyond the observable universe, therefore God is beyond the observable universe.
Your reasoning is completely fallacious.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: Honest Question to Atheists - Best Argument?
July 25, 2015 at 1:24 pm
Yes, but that pause when stumped, didn't cause me to suddenly cave in and covert. But, those pauses also happened when I was far more ignorant of theists tactics and science.
All the world's religions make apologies for their god/s. Considering all the dead ones no longer believed in, and even those still surviving were concocted by scientific ignorance it makes much more sense to me religion and god claims are all man made
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RE: Honest Question to Atheists - Best Argument?
July 25, 2015 at 1:58 pm
(July 25, 2015 at 1:11 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: (July 25, 2015 at 11:11 am)popsthebuilder Wrote: Ok. Back up. Back out of our observable Universe.
What's left?
The hypothesis of quantization.
Now, through this hypothesis we can retionalize not only miracles,
No. Many miracle stories are still from primitive, superstitious people, so we have no reason to believe them. We also know about magicians, who seem to do miracles, but do not do miracles. Stupid and ignorant people can be fooled by magicians into believing some miracle really occurred. So whatever is beyond the observable universe (if anything) does not make the miracle stories believable.
And even if you were right about this (and you are obviously not; see previous paragraph), you would have zero justification for singling out the miracle stories of one religion rather than the miracle stories of any other religion, or those miracle stories not associated with any religion. Are you really silly enough to believe every ridiculous story that anyone tells you?
Whatever is beyond the observable universe, we still observe regularities in the observable universe. Any claim that violates the regularities is automatically suspect, as usually (or always) things happen in the regular way.
(July 25, 2015 at 11:11 am)popsthebuilder Wrote: but the existence of God as literally everything at all places at all times.
If everything is generally the same everywhere, then seamingly unprovable concepts of God are completely plausable.
Big bang? Let there be light.
Chew on that candy kiddos.
Thoughts?
Not hate mongering, real, free thought please.
Even if there is something beyond the observable universe, you still don't get a personal god out of that, or anything with a consciousness. You are just making stuff up, and have no basis for saying that any of it is real.
Your argument is essentially an argumentum ad ignorantiam. Your argument is essentially:
We don't know what is beyond the observable universe, therefore God is beyond the observable universe.
Your reasoning is completely fallacious. No all we can surmise by use of related sciences is that God cannot be ruled out. I never singled out any one God. There is but one God. That is single, and One, and all encompassing.
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RE: Honest Question to Atheists - Best Argument?
July 25, 2015 at 2:05 pm
(July 25, 2015 at 1:24 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Yes, but that pause when stumped, didn't cause me to suddenly cave in and covert. But, those pauses also happened when I was far more ignorant of theists tactics and science.
All the world's religions make apologies for their god/s. Considering all the dead ones no longer believed in, and even those still surviving were concocted by scientific ignorance it makes much more sense to me religion and god claims are all man made No apologies. Two slightly different things that lead two opposite directions.
The Lord created all in its image, however the only thing it had to use for materials other than itself was darkness /nothing/nearly nothing. This is the reason for balance, evil, conscious thought, pain, catastrophe, so forth, and so on. The potential for these two forces is infinite. However good is naturally much stronger in every way due to its nature. Bad is nothing and seeks to make nothing, or end everything.
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