Evidence: The Gathering

[Whateverist]

*yawn*

Is this nugget still hanging around?

Some dingle berries must be wiped out.  They're just not going to fall.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Something that is testable, verifiable, and repeatable.

It's the bare minimum I will accept. OP does not meet this bare minimum.

How do you repeat history, panda?

Have you asked Caesar to cross the Rubicon more than once? Will Paul Revere need ride a second time just to satisfy your need to know?

Idiota. Reveals how impossible it is to reason with those who are by default unreasonable and who have been indoctrinated to believe nonsense.

I have no use for a husk of a human being who is incapable of thinking for themselves without twisting everything to be about a non-existent entity. Needless to say, equivocation between Ceaser and resurrection zombie Jew is laughable. As well, Ceaser never claimed to be a god capable for creating a universe, so the evidence required is slightly different. Don't expect you to understand any of that, but then again neither do i particularly care.

[robvalue]

Jesus can come back and be killed again in front of me, and then come back to life. With loads of other witnesses. I'll accept that as evidence that he can come back to life. I doubt anything else would be sufficient for such extraordinary claims.

I won't accept it as evidence that he's god, or the son of God though. Nor will I bow to him. Talk to him, sure. I'd love to talk to him.

Actually talk to him that is, in the normal sensible way where both parties contribute, and it takes place outside of my own mind.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Jesus can come back and be killed again in front of me, and then come back to life. With loads of other witnesses. I'll accept that as evidence that he can come back to life. I doubt anything else would be sufficient for such extraordinary claims.

I won't accept it as evidence that he's god, or the son of God though. Nor will I bow to him. Talk to him, sure. I'd love to talk to him.

Actually talk to him that is, in the normal sensible way where both parties contribute, and it takes place outside of my own mind.

Theists are fucked anyway because the human mind has conceived of a being at least as powerful as the supposed bible god but which isn't a god:



A god would have to convince me that it's not just a super evolved being with supposed god like powers, and I'm not sure it ever could.

[robvalue]

No, the character of Yahweh in the bible is very seriously under-powered. He's nowhere near the general word salad descriptions I get.

I still have no idea what the entry requirements are for a god, and what separates them from just a regular being with immense power. It's why I find the concept and the questions involved nonsensical. I don't know what we're talking about. Neither, I expect, do the people asking me the question.

[pocaracas]

Evidence... none!

Pretty impressive response, poca.

Not that I agree with your points, of course, but you get full props for actually addressing the material in SOME fashion.

cheers!
It's too much stuff for a decent point-by-point response...
Perhaps some other day... some other thread...

Have you noticed that almost no one else does?

I have.... they were waiting for me to reply!
They're cool like that, sometimes.

You're better than this forum. I know you're a mod with certain bennies and status, etc. but you would benefit from changing to CAF. Seriously.

I tried once, remember? They wouldn't let me register.
Besides, I'm not interested in talking about catholicism in particular... I put all religions at the same level.

You're slumming here. This claptrap is beneath you intellectually.

There are days...

And btw, Josephus was WAAAAAAAAY too removed. Really? Learn how professional historians think, okay?

Care to tell me how Josephus was claimed to be an eye-witness of the resurrection?
Or did he just write about a group of people called "chrestians"?
And didn't his writings get added on to a bit later by some christian scribe?
Can those professional historians tell us which bits are accurate accounts from Josephus' lifetime and which were added later?

Even the qur'an is a better attestation of the life of Mohammed, than any of those you listed... and yet, you don't believe in the story about the archangel seeing nomad arab, holder of a harem, leader of the tribe that conquered the Arabian peninsula, last prophet of allah.
And this arab was much closer, in time, to the events of the NT and yet, even he did not believe in the divinity of Jesus... some degree of prophethood, yes... but not the messiah.

You don't believe him; he doesn't believe you; I don't believe you both!

[Bob Kelso]

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So, for the past couple of months, I've been listening to skeptics saying, "Show me the evidence, show me the evidence" again and again as if by repetition, they can somehow ward off seeing the existence of God, the existence of Jesus and the resurrection.

Therefore, I'm going to use this thread to gather examples of various types of evidence that I come across. I'll add to or subtract from this document as it seems necessary.  Consider this a work in progress.

Evidence for the Existence of God

Philosophical Arguments
Throughout history, many efforts have been made to prove or disprove the existence of God, and most of these efforts have been discarded. However, there are number of philosophical arguments which have withstood the tests of time and of criticism. The believer only needs one of these arguments to be true while the skeptic must refute all of them thoroughly; if any one of them remains intact after scrutiny, then the existence of God has been proven.

1. The Argument from Change
   
2. The Argument from Efficient Causality
   
3. The Argument from Time and Contingency
   
4. The Argument from Degrees of Perfection
   
5. The Design Argument
   
6. The Kalam Argument
   
7. The Argument from Contingency
   
8. The Argument from the World as an Interacting Whole
   
9. The Argument from Miracles
   
10. The Argument from Consciousness
    
11. The Argument from Truth
    
12. The Argument from the Origin of the Idea of God
    
13. The Ontological Argument
    
14. The Moral Argument
    
15. The Argument from Conscience
    
16. The Argument from Desire
    
17. The Argument from Aesthetic Experience
    
18. The Argument from Religious Experience
    
19. The Common Consent Argument
    
20. Pascal's Wager (not technically an argument for God existence)
    

Available here.

“Modern” Miracles
Lourdes, Fatima and other appearances of Mary and Jesus approved by the Catholic Church
The Incorruptibles (saints whose bodies have not experienced corruption.)

Personal Experience
When a person comes to know God personally, this knowledge is evidence of His existence.

Evidence for the Existence of the Historical Jesus (Ehrman’s Criteria)

Physical Evidence (photographs, inscriptions on coins, etc.)
The Shroud of Turin

Writings
Nothing written by Jesus exists.

Writings of Others about Jesus
New Testament Documents
Josephus
Tacitus
Pliny the Younger
Mara bar Serapion
Clement of Rome
Polycarp

Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus

Fact 1
After his crucifixion, Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea in his personal tomb. This is significant because it would have been difficult for the disciples to make up the story of an empty tomb when everyone knew where the tomb was located.
1. Jesus’ burial is attested in the very old tradition quoted by Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians.
“For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve.” (1 Co 15:3-5)
Paul “received” this account from Peter within the first five years of Jesus’ crucifixion making the possibility of legend or myth very unlikely.
2. The account of the burial is part of very old source material used by Mark in writing his gospel. The passion narrative, in particular, is thought to be from an even earlier account that was used by all of the gospel writers.
3. As a member of the Jewish court that condemned Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea is unlikely to be a Christian invention.
4. No competing burial story exists.

Fact 2
On the Sunday following the crucifixion, the tomb of Jesus was found empty by a group of his female followers.
1. The empty tomb story is part of the very old source material used by Mark.
2. The old tradition cited by Paul in 1 Corinthians implies the fact of the empty tomb.
3. Mark’s story is simple and lacks signs of legendary embellishment.
4. The fact that women’s testimony was worthless in first century Palestine strengthens the case that women were the first to discover the empty tomb. Why would any account use the suspect testimony of women if it were not an accurate recounting of what really happened?
5. The earliest Jewish allegations that the disciples had stolen Jesus’ body presupposes that the tomb was empty.

Fact 3
On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups experienced appearances of Jesus alive after his death.
1. The list of eyewitnesses to Jesus’ resurrection appearances (which is quoted by Paul and vouchsafed by his personal acquaintance with many of the people involved), guarantees that such appearances occurred. These included appearances to Peter, to the Apostles, to 500 people at one time, and to James.
2. The appearance traditions in the gospels provide multiple, independent attestation to these appearances.
3. Researchers have noticed signs of historical credibility in the specific appearances; for example, the unexpected activity of the disciples’ fishing prior to Jesus’ appearance by the Lake of Tiberius or the otherwise inexplicable conversion of James.

Fact 4
The disciples believed that Jesus was risen from the dead despite having every reason not to believe it.
1. Their leader was dead, and Jews had no belief in a dying (and rising) Messiah.
2. According to Jewish law, Jesus’ execution as a criminal showed him to be a heretic and a man literally under the curse of God.
3. Jewish beliefs about the afterlife precluded anyone’s rising from the dead before the general resurrection at the end of the world.
4. The disciples were transformed from a dispirited, fearful group into a bold and fearless force willing to take on the world.

Fact 5
The conversion of Paul

Fact 6
The conversion of James

Fact 7
The Jews who followed Jesus abandoned the Sabbath and chose the first day of the week, Sunday, as their holy day.
1. Why would Jews abandon the Sabbath day instituted by God unless something very significant had happened on Sunday?

Fact 8
The Apostles began to preach the resurrection of Jesus in Jerusalem where He had been killed.
1. They did not return to Galilee and begin preaching to people who had no knowledge of the facts concerning Jesus’ crucifixion; they began preaching right under the noses of those who were responsible for His death.
2. Anyone wanting to disprove the resurrection would only have to open the nearby tomb to display the corpse or skeleton.
3. No one on either side of the issue denied that Jesus’ tomb was empty; as stated previously, the Jews claimed that the disciples stole the body.

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Seriously, Randy, I know you're enjoying your mental masturbation here but unless you can do better; go blow it out your ass.

[RobbyPants]

So, for the past couple of months, I've been listening to skeptics saying, "Show me the evidence, show me the evidence" again and again as if by repetition, they can somehow ward off seeing the existence of God, the existence of Jesus and the resurrection.

The evidence can't be presuppositional if it's to be taken seriously by skeptics.

[Whateverist]

Typical evidence:

Everything -> therefore -> God

[Jenny A]

So, for the past couple of months, I've been listening to skeptics saying, "Show me the evidence, show me the evidence" again and again as if by repetition, they can somehow ward off seeing the existence of God, the existence of Jesus and the resurrection.

Therefore, I'm going to use this thread to gather examples of various types of evidence that I come across. I'll add to or subtract from this document as it seems necessary.  Consider this a work in progress.

But you've already said you are not going to meet the standard of proof required by any self respecting skeptic.

 God does not offer evidence that forces you to decide one way or the other. The clues are sufficient, but no coercive.

Your clues would only persuade a person who is trying very hard to be persuaded.  I'm not interested in trying to persuade myself of what can't be proven anymore than I'm interested in a special on lobotomies.