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Current time: March 29, 2024, 7:14 am

Poll: What is more important to you?
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Truth
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14 100.00%
Love
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0 0%
Total 14 vote(s) 100%
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Truth or Love?.. What Matters to you Most?
#21
RE: Truth or Love?.. What Matters to you Most?
They are intertwined.
Science built the hadron collider because of our love for the truth!
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#22
RE: Truth or Love?.. What Matters to you Most?
(July 20, 2015 at 1:18 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: Truth or Love?

I feel I could go through life, content, without experiencing love. Of course, I’d need some friendships or acquaintances, but I don’t feel I’d need love. Love, of course, is a great thing, but it can make your life miserable, as well. I’d rather have truth, than someone pretending to love me for whatever reason. I’d rather have someone be brutally honest with me, as often as possible, as opposed to someone talking about me behind my back. I’d want to hear feedback how I could be a better person, rather than false love, like.. when people tell you that you’re amazing, but you really aren’t. They want you to hear that, in order to use you in some way. It happens too often.

I think it’s a problem, when people don’t hear the truth enough. Everyone is worried about hurting everyone else’s feelings or being politically correct, instead of trying to point out each other’s mistakes. I don’t think life should revolve around that, but when someone is doing something wrong over and over again to someone, or to multiple people, they need to hear it. Some people are narcissistic, but many people are decent, and will want to change to be a better person, so they can get along with whomever, better than before. Being kind and truthful to one another, plus common interests, and other positive personality traits, can lead to love. I don’t think that you have love without truth, not in my definition anyway.

Truth or Love.. What’s more important, and why? Force yourself to think about it, and don’t say both are equally important.

Love

Not at all to demean the importance of truth but there is a time and a place for it. Just for an arbitrary example I am a recovering anorexic and while I have been getting myself together I know I'm not the most attractive person in the world anyway, more than that with getting back into shape despite being assured I'm very slim I am constantly plagued by the idea that I'm considerably more overweight compared to everyone else, indeed it's something that I compare every time I see someone even now.

Now knowing how many self-image problems I have and what a nasty turn that has previously taken (I have previously been in hospital from complications related to malnourishment), supposing someone far better looking and slimmer did come along what would be better for my partner to tell me? That I look fine or that compared to X I look like a whale? Perhaps I do look like a whale compared to X, but taking into consideration my feelings and well-being my partner is more likely going to follow the former response.

"Saying it like it is" is important, but with everything there is a time and a place. Love involves putting your own interests aside and prioritizing someone (or something) elses instead. That's a very generous thing to do, and sometimes it's more valuable than the truth. Sometimes peoples feelings do need a good shakeup, but that doesn't always mean you have a right to or should. As in my case, you might not care if someone called you fat but if someone had done that to me a while ago I'd probably have not eaten for the next three or four days and obsessed over the criticism for several weeks afterwards.

Clearly that's not the norm, and it's not healthy either. But in either case to me it shows sometimes the truth isn't always the right thing to say, you could replace anorexic there for paranoid, ugly or any other of problems someone might have that might mean nothing to you but could be crushing to them if it was focused upon. Sometimes the right thing to say is what helps someone else get through the day, and being that empathetic, indeed loving seems more important.
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#23
RE: Truth or Love?.. What Matters to you Most?
(July 21, 2015 at 7:47 pm)Metis Wrote:
(July 20, 2015 at 1:18 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: Truth or Love?

I feel I could go through life, content, without experiencing love. Of course, I’d need some friendships or acquaintances, but I don’t feel I’d need love. Love, of course, is a great thing, but it can make your life miserable, as well. I’d rather have truth, than someone pretending to love me for whatever reason. I’d rather have someone be brutally honest with me, as often as possible, as opposed to someone talking about me behind my back. I’d want to hear feedback how I could be a better person, rather than false love, like.. when people tell you that you’re amazing, but you really aren’t. They want you to hear that, in order to use you in some way. It happens too often.

I think it’s a problem, when people don’t hear the truth enough. Everyone is worried about hurting everyone else’s feelings or being politically correct, instead of trying to point out each other’s mistakes. I don’t think life should revolve around that, but when someone is doing something wrong over and over again to someone, or to multiple people, they need to hear it. Some people are narcissistic, but many people are decent, and will want to change to be a better person, so they can get along with whomever, better than before. Being kind and truthful to one another, plus common interests, and other positive personality traits, can lead to love. I don’t think that you have love without truth, not in my definition anyway.

Truth or Love.. What’s more important, and why? Force yourself to think about it, and don’t say both are equally important.

Love

Not at all to demean the importance of truth but there is a time and a place for it. Just for an arbitrary example I am a recovering anorexic and while I have been getting myself together I know I'm not the most attractive person in the world anyway, more than that with getting back into shape despite being assured I'm very slim I am constantly plagued by the idea that I'm considerably more overweight compared to everyone else, indeed it's something that I compare every time I see someone even now.

Now knowing how many self-image problems I have and what a nasty turn that has previously taken (I have previously been in hospital from complications related to malnourishment), supposing someone far better looking and slimmer did come along what would be better for my partner to tell me? That I look fine or that compared to X I look like a whale? Perhaps I do look like a whale compared to X, but taking into consideration my feelings and well-being my partner is more likely going to follow the former response.

"Saying it like it is" is important, but with everything there is a time and a place. Love involves putting your own interests aside and prioritizing someone (or something) elses instead. That's a very generous thing to do, and sometimes it's more valuable than the truth. Sometimes peoples feelings do need a good shakeup, but that doesn't always mean you have a right to or should. As in my case, you might not care if someone called you fat but if someone had done that to me a while ago I'd probably have not eaten for the next three or four days and obsessed over the criticism for several weeks afterwards.

Clearly that's not the norm, and it's not healthy either. But in either case to me it shows sometimes the truth isn't always the right thing to say, you could replace anorexic there for paranoid, ugly or any other of problems someone might have that might mean nothing to you but could be crushing to them if it was focused upon. Sometimes the right thing to say is what helps someone else get through the day, and being that empathetic, indeed loving seems more important.


You know, you make a pretty good point, except for one thing.  You state:

"(I have previously been in hospital from complications related to malnourishment), supposing someone far better looking and slimmer did come along what would be better for my partner to tell me? That I look fine or that compared to X I look like a whale? Perhaps I do look like a whale compared to X"

No.  No you don't look like a whale.  Not if you are suffering from malnourishment.  Your issue is not with someone telling you the truth, but with someone telling you an evil lie.

Trust me on this:  If you are in the range of weight for your height that the AMA recommends, you are not a whale.  Not even close. As far as your weight is concerned, you are totally fine if you are in the range recommended by the AMA.  If you are below it, you should gain weight.  You will look better for it.

Trust me on this.  My wife was underweight when I married her.  She gained a little weight in the first year of our marriage, which brought her up to AMA standards.  She looked better for it.  Too thin is bad.  Anyone who tells you different is an idiot.

Now, it is possible for someone to be too fat.  But that does not meant that thiner is always better.

My advice is to try to stay within the recommended weight range of the AMA.  You will look great if you do, as far as weight is concerned.

So, I think you need the truth that I am telling you.  Of course, I am not saying that you are wrong to want love.

"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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#24
RE: Truth or Love?.. What Matters to you Most?
(July 21, 2015 at 8:57 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: You know, you make a pretty good point, except for one thing.  You state:

"(I have previously been in hospital from complications related to malnourishment), supposing someone far better looking and slimmer did come along what would be better for my partner to tell me? That I look fine or that compared to X I look like a whale? Perhaps I do look like a whale compared to X"

No.  No you don't look like a whale.  Not if you are suffering from malnourishment.  Your issue is not with someone telling you the truth, but with someone telling you an evil lie.

Trust me on this:  If you are in the range of weight for your height that the AMA recommends, you are not a whale.  Not even close. As far as your weight is concerned, you are totally fine if you are in the range recommended by the AMA.  If you are below it, you should gain weight.  You will look better for it.

Trust me on this.  My wife was underweight when I married her.  She gained a little weight in the first year of our marriage, which brought her up to AMA standards.  She looked better for it.  Too thin is bad.  Anyone who tells you different is an idiot.

Now, it is possible for someone to be too fat.  But that does not meant that thiner is always better.

My advice is to try to stay within the recommended weight range of the AMA.  You will look great if you do, as far as weight is concerned.

So, I think you need the truth that I am telling you.  Of course, I am not saying that you are wrong to want love.

Thanks Pyrro, what you're saying does make a lot of sense. Perhaps my own example wasn't the best comparison, largely because it is (or rather should be) immediately obvious that isn't true. I'm not as underweight as I was at my worst now which was some time ago, I'm still considered underweight by the BMI chart but I am on the upper side of that category and getting towards the right range. I've had a lot of help getting things together since my worst point and I probably would have gotten it sooner if I hadn't spent half my time trying to cover it up, or rather covering up how "fat" I was.

I can't really argue with that, I've made the mistake of mixing up love with not being an asshole there. It's absolutely right.
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#25
RE: Truth or Love?.. What Matters to you Most?
(July 21, 2015 at 9:22 pm)Metis Wrote:
(July 21, 2015 at 8:57 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: You know, you make a pretty good point, except for one thing.  You state:

"(I have previously been in hospital from complications related to malnourishment), supposing someone far better looking and slimmer did come along what would be better for my partner to tell me? That I look fine or that compared to X I look like a whale? Perhaps I do look like a whale compared to X"

No.  No you don't look like a whale.  Not if you are suffering from malnourishment.  Your issue is not with someone telling you the truth, but with someone telling you an evil lie.

Trust me on this:  If you are in the range of weight for your height that the AMA recommends, you are not a whale.  Not even close. As far as your weight is concerned, you are totally fine if you are in the range recommended by the AMA.  If you are below it, you should gain weight.  You will look better for it.

Trust me on this.  My wife was underweight when I married her.  She gained a little weight in the first year of our marriage, which brought her up to AMA standards.  She looked better for it.  Too thin is bad.  Anyone who tells you different is an idiot.

Now, it is possible for someone to be too fat.  But that does not meant that thiner is always better.

My advice is to try to stay within the recommended weight range of the AMA.  You will look great if you do, as far as weight is concerned.

So, I think you need the truth that I am telling you.  Of course, I am not saying that you are wrong to want love.

Thanks Pyrro, what you're saying does make a lot of sense. Perhaps my own example wasn't the best comparison, largely because it is (or rather should be) immediately obvious that isn't true, but it could apply to someone with depression, not being happy with how their face looks or other forms of social awkwardness which might not be easily validated or immediately obvious but just having the idea picked upon can make the problem even worse.


Okay, but often the biggest problem is that people are still believing falsehoods.  If the best thing you can say about someone is that they are pretty, you really would be better off not dating that person.  And the same goes for you; if you are not pretty, that is not the most important thing about a person.  I know, people do discriminate based on looks, but that is because people are stupid and bad.

If my wife were in an accident and she were horribly scarred, I would still love her.  I love her, not what she looks like.  It is her mind that matters most.  And even there, if she were to mentally deteriorate, I would love her for what she was (that is to say, for what she is presently).  But that would be a worse thing, from my perspective, than if she were horribly scarred.

Still, given the bigotry (in this case, sexism) of people generally, I would rather be scarred myself than for my wife to be scarred.  Men can be scarred without it having the same social impact as a woman being scarred.  Think of a pirate with an eye patch, or a scar from a sword wound, and it all has a vaguely romantic and manly quality about it.  But think of it on a woman, and most people seem repulsed.  That is why I would rather be scarred than for my wife to be.  But regardless, I would love her anyway.


(July 21, 2015 at 9:22 pm)Metis Wrote: I'm not as underweight as I was at my worst now which was some time ago, I'm still considered underweight by the BMI chart but I am on the upper side of that category and getting towards the right range. I've had a lot of help getting things together since my worst point and I probably would have gotten it sooner if I hadn't spent half my time trying to cover it up.


Trust me; you will look better in the range than below it.  If you are fanatical about being thin, you can keep to the low end of the range recommended by the AMA, but you really are better looking in the range than below it.


(July 21, 2015 at 9:22 pm)Metis Wrote: I can't really argue with that, I've made the mistake of mixing up love with not being an asshole there. It's absolutely right.


I am sorry; I do not understand that.

"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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#26
RE: Truth or Love?.. What Matters to you Most?
(July 21, 2015 at 9:41 pm)Pyrrho Wrote:
(July 21, 2015 at 9:22 pm)Metis Wrote: Thanks Pyrro, what you're saying does make a lot of sense. Perhaps my own example wasn't the best comparison, largely because it is (or rather should be) immediately obvious that isn't true, but it could apply to someone with depression, not being happy with how their face looks or other forms of social awkwardness which might not be easily validated or immediately obvious but just having the idea picked upon can make the problem even worse.


Okay, but often the biggest problem is that people are still believing falsehoods.  If the best thing you can say about someone is that they are pretty, you really would be better off not dating that person.  And the same goes for you; if you are not pretty, that is not the most important thing about a person.  I know, people do discriminate based on looks, but that is because people are stupid and bad.

If my wife were in an accident and she were horribly scarred, I would still love her.  I love her, not what she looks like.  It is her mind that matters most.  And even there, if she were to mentally deteriorate, I would love her for what she was (that is to say, for what she is presently).  But that would be a worse thing, from my perspective, than if she were horribly scarred.

Still, given the bigotry (in this case, sexism) of people generally, I would rather be scarred myself than for my wife to be scarred.  Men can be scarred without it having the same social impact as a woman being scarred.  Think of a pirate with an eye patch, or a scar from a sword wound, and it all has a vaguely romantic and manly quality about it.  But think of it on a woman, and most people seem repulsed.  That is why I would rather be scarred than for my wife to be.  But regardless, I would love her anyway.


(July 21, 2015 at 9:22 pm)Metis Wrote: I'm not as underweight as I was at my worst now which was some time ago, I'm still considered underweight by the BMI chart but I am on the upper side of that category and getting towards the right range. I've had a lot of help getting things together since my worst point and I probably would have gotten it sooner if I hadn't spent half my time trying to cover it up.


Trust me; you will look better in the range than below it.  If you are fanatical about being thin, you can keep to the low end of the range recommended by the AMA, but you really are better looking in the range than below it.


(July 21, 2015 at 9:22 pm)Metis Wrote: I can't really argue with that, I've made the mistake of mixing up love with not being an asshole there. It's absolutely right.


I am sorry; I do not understand that.

Sorry, I meant I agreed with what you said above. You changed my mind on the subject since the main examples I used were with people who had some form of delusion causing them problems being further fulled by falsehoods, not the truth per say which I initially thought.

Your wife is lucky to have someone like you Tongue And I know you're right about the weight range, it is silly because on a sensible level I know it's more important to be healthy on another less enlightened level I still feel envious of individuals who are or who I think are even skinnier than me, even though I know some of them are ill and live on little more than cigarettes and diet Pepsi.

It is weird about the scars, it doesn't make any sense really, a scar is a deformity that should be no less impactful on a man or a woman and yet upon the latter it's far less tolerable. I can only assume it must have something to do with the intense pressure to conform to an ideal of beauty which most men don't seem to feel, and to not be or not able to live up to it suggesting one is damaged. I don't get it either, even though as awful as it is I think it myself; I'd probably not think twice seeing a scar on a mans face but I'd probably look closer at a woman with one and yet it makes no sense why I would. FSM Sad
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#27
RE: Truth or Love?.. What Matters to you Most?
(July 21, 2015 at 10:04 pm)Metis Wrote: ... And I know you're right about the weight range, it is silly because on a sensible level I know it's more important to be healthy on another less enlightened level I still feel envious of individuals who are or who I think are even skinner than me, even though I know some of them are ill and live on little more than cigarettes and diet Pepsi.

...

I agree that being healthy is more important than being attractive, but it is not just that it is healthier.  Healthier is better looking as well.  Being too thin is not attractive.  Not to me, anyway.  To me, the ultimate in sexy is very healthy looking.  You can think about this from the other end; imagine someone being sickly, coughing up phlegm, etc.  That is not sexy.  And so, too, is an unhealthy weight unsexy.  Whether it is excessive or too little weight.  Being healthy is, to a great extent, being good looking.

My advice is to strive for a reasonably healthy lifestyle, so that you live as good of a life as your reasonably can.

"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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#28
RE: Truth or Love?.. What Matters to you Most?
(July 21, 2015 at 1:02 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote:
(July 21, 2015 at 12:07 pm)The Barefoot Bum Wrote: Why is there a trade-off? Why can't I have both?

You can have both. I thought it would be a decent exercise, to pick one that matters most to you. Are they exactly the same for you?

Chalk it up to my weird economist's brain. Are truth and love complements? substitutes? Is there a budget constraint? Do I have to give up some love to get more truth?

Personally, I think there's no truth without love, no love without truth. And there's no budget constraint: we can have as much of either or both as we want, without giving up anything else.
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#29
RE: Truth or Love?.. What Matters to you Most?
(July 21, 2015 at 7:47 pm)Metis Wrote:
(July 20, 2015 at 1:18 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: Truth or Love?




Love

Not at all to demean the importance of truth but there is a time and a place for it. Just for an arbitrary example I am a recovering anorexic and while I have been getting myself together I know I'm not the most attractive person in the world anyway, more than that with getting back into shape despite being assured I'm very slim I am constantly plagued by the idea that I'm considerably more overweight compared to everyone else, indeed it's something that I compare every time I see someone even now.

Now knowing how many self-image problems I have and what a nasty turn that has previously taken (I have previously been in hospital from complications related to malnourishment), supposing someone far better looking and slimmer did come along what would be better for my partner to tell me? That I look fine or that compared to X I look like a whale? Perhaps I do look like a whale compared to X, but taking into consideration my feelings and well-being my partner is more likely going to follow the former response.

"Saying it like it is" is important, but with everything there is a time and a place. Love involves putting your own interests aside and prioritizing someone (or something) elses instead. That's a very generous thing to do, and sometimes it's more valuable than the truth. Sometimes peoples feelings do need a good shakeup, but that doesn't always mean you have a right to or should. As in my case, you might not care if someone called you fat but if someone had done that to me a while ago I'd probably have not eaten for the next three or four days and obsessed over the criticism for several weeks afterwards.

Clearly that's not the norm, and it's not healthy either. But in either case to me it shows sometimes the truth isn't always the right thing to say, you could replace anorexic there for paranoid, ugly or any other of problems someone might have that might mean nothing to you but could be crushing to them if it was focused upon. Sometimes the right thing to say is what helps someone else get through the day, and being that empathetic, indeed loving seems more important.


(couldn't figure out how to get this message to appear correctly) Metis, just keep your head up, and stay within the AMA standards as Pyrrho has said. Don't pay attention to the people trying to bring you down or make you feel bad. Do your best not to listen to those thoughts that you are overweight (easier said then done, I know), just focus on the charts and feeling good about yourself. That's brave of you to share that story, we're here to help if you need it. Smile
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' -Isaac Asimov-
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#30
RE: Truth or Love?.. What Matters to you Most?
(July 21, 2015 at 10:46 pm)The Barefoot Bum Wrote:
(July 21, 2015 at 1:02 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: You can have both. I thought it would be a decent exercise, to pick one that matters most to you. Are they exactly the same for you?

Chalk it up to my weird economist's brain. Are truth and love complements? substitutes? Is there a budget constraint? Do I have to give up some love to get more truth?

Personally, I think there's no truth without love, no love without truth. And there's no budget constraint: we can have as much of either or both as we want, without giving up anything else.

Well, I'd disagree with you on that. I can give you truth all day without showing you love. As for the second part, I'm not so sure. I think people can love each other without being completely truthful with one another, but for an actual loving relationship, I'd agree that a decent amount of truth would have to be involved.
Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.' -Isaac Asimov-
Reply



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