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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 4:12 pm
(July 31, 2015 at 5:25 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: (July 31, 2015 at 5:06 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: Hell the theists can use all the people they can get with a sense of humor. They need you more than we do. If you'd like a consultation on how you might hold your beliefs more reasonably with the least amount of cognitive dissonance, I might be able tp help.
I'm no missionary and haven't any preference for what you believe. However I have a strong preference that you not push to enthrone your beliefs into secular society.
On this you and I will always agree. Religious belief is and always should be a personal belief and has no business being pressed upon society as a whole.
If everyone shared your opinion, my concerns about religion would be hugely reduced.
I also consider the next generation as another part of society, but luckily you're not one for indoctrination either! A theist role model, if I may say so.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 7:45 pm
(August 3, 2015 at 1:57 pm)robvalue Wrote: My god is above good and evil, they are matters for the primitive under gods.
Interesting my God is above duality as well, are we talking about the same God? The only difference I see is that I believe in God and I presume you don't. Why don't you want to believe?
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 10:12 pm
(August 3, 2015 at 7:45 pm)ktrap Wrote: (August 3, 2015 at 1:57 pm)robvalue Wrote: My god is above good and evil, they are matters for the primitive under gods.
Interesting my God is above duality as well, are we talking about the same God? The only difference I see is that I believe in God and I presume you don't. Why don't you want to believe?
He's illustrating how it's possible for even a non-believer to make up a contentious, bullshit answer to potentially any question in the name of peddling any god you could name, and that it always sounds the same regardless of which god you use. I think he was hoping you would pick up on this on your own. I entertain no such hope.
Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)
Also, I has a website: www.RedbeardThePink.com
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 10:35 pm
(August 3, 2015 at 11:34 am)ktrap Wrote: And as I said before God is infinite and has infinite amount of time. According to General Relativity time is relative not absolute. The creation of the universe is on a different clock than God's own, that is why time can exist outside this universe.
Infinite regression. Infinite regression. Infinite regression...
What was your god doing before it's first thought? Or was it's first thought it's own creation?
For god to create the universe requires causality and causality requires time.
No matter how you double talk it, either there is infinite regression or there is no time.
We are here, therefore no infinite regression. Infinite regression. Infinite regression. Infinite regression...
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 10:41 pm
(August 3, 2015 at 4:12 pm)robvalue Wrote: (July 31, 2015 at 5:25 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: On this you and I will always agree. Religious belief is and always should be a personal belief and has no business being pressed upon society as a whole.
If everyone shared your opinion, my concerns about religion would be hugely reduced.
I also consider the next generation as another part of society, but luckily you're not one for indoctrination either! A theist role model, if I may say so.
That is why I hold out hope for a good enough world through better theology.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 10:46 pm
(August 3, 2015 at 7:45 pm)ktrap Wrote: (August 3, 2015 at 1:57 pm)robvalue Wrote: My god is above good and evil, they are matters for the primitive under gods.
Interesting my God is above duality as well, are we talking about the same God? The only difference I see is that I believe in God and I presume you don't. Why don't you want to believe?
Can't answer for my man robvalue but, for myself, what I want has very little to do with what I believe. I reserve "believe" for what I think I have reason to believe true. You might do better to ask, "why don't you want a god to exist?"
In any case, the devil is in the details of what you mean by "god". I fully believe that gods exist in the minds of many believers. Can you believe they don't in mine? What I don't believe exists is a literal, galactic being who holds all being in Himself. What do you mean by "god"?
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 10:49 pm
(This post was last modified: August 3, 2015 at 10:50 pm by Whateverist.)
(August 3, 2015 at 10:35 pm)IATIA Wrote: (August 3, 2015 at 11:34 am)ktrap Wrote: And as I said before God is infinite and has infinite amount of time. According to General Relativity time is relative not absolute. The creation of the universe is on a different clock than God's own, that is why time can exist outside this universe.
Infinite regression. Infinite regression. Infinite regression...
What was your god doing before it's first thought? Or was it's first thought it's own creation?
For god to create the universe requires causality and causality requires time.
No matter how you double talk it, either there is infinite regression or there is no time.
We are here, therefore no infinite regression. Infinite regression. Infinite regression. Infinite regression...
Try it this way:
Infinite regression. Infinite regression. Infinite regression. Infinite regression. Infinite regression. Infinite regression.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 3, 2015 at 11:10 pm
(This post was last modified: August 3, 2015 at 11:11 pm by robvalue.)
(August 3, 2015 at 7:45 pm)ktrap Wrote: (August 3, 2015 at 1:57 pm)robvalue Wrote: My god is above good and evil, they are matters for the primitive under gods.
Interesting my God is above duality as well, are we talking about the same God? The only difference I see is that I believe in God and I presume you don't. Why don't you want to believe?
Belief isn't a choice, it's a state of mind. As Whateverist says, what I want has no impact on what is true, or what I find convincing. If you have "chosen" to believe, then you don't actually believe, you are just saying you believe.
Can you demonstrate in any way at all that the God you describe actually exists outside of your own imagination?
My god is above the thing above duality, and it created all other gods. Everything needs a creator, so if your God exists, it was created by my god.
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 4, 2015 at 7:33 pm
(August 3, 2015 at 11:24 am)lkingpinl Wrote: (August 1, 2015 at 11:23 am)IATIA Wrote: If first cause can 'just be', then everything can 'just be'.
I don't see the logical conclusion from your premise. Unless you are assuming that everything in existence has always existed (even you) but perhaps in a different form or state (Pantheism)? Just because one thing can be something does not mean everything can also be that. Everything physical no matter how you slice it can only explain its existence outside itself.
I assume that you believe in god and that it always existed. If your god has no beginning then it must just be. If your omnipotent, omnipresent god can just be, then why cannot the universe just be rather than bring in an illogical possibility like god?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?
August 4, 2015 at 7:41 pm
(August 3, 2015 at 11:34 am)ktrap Wrote: (August 1, 2015 at 10:20 am)IATIA Wrote: If god has been around for an 'infinity', then we would not be here as an infinite amount of time has not passed, nor ever will.
If god is placed 'outside' time, then our universe must be outside time as well.
If both are outside time, then there is no causality and everything just 'is'.
Without time god could not create the universe because there was no 'before there was a universe'.
Is time some atomic (or subatomic) particle? How can time even come into the equation without an observer to measure it. Therefore, first you need an observer and then time can begin, not the other way around. In the case of the creation of the universe God existed prior to it in order for time to start. And as I said before God is infinite and has infinite amount of time. According to General Relativity time is relative not absolute. The creation of the universe is on a different clock than God's own, that is why time can exist outside this universe.
Time is measurement of causality. If you have a god, then you have a whole bunch of illogical positions.
What initiated god? What initiated god's first thought? What initiated god's desire? What initiated god's action? Now we have causality which leads to infinite regression. What was god doing before all of this? More infinite regression. God just cannot exist. With causality comes infinite regression. Without causality, it just is. No need for a god, because all just is.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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