Does religion make armies stronger?

[Thumpalumpacus]

If you speak to veterans you eventually find that they fight for their buddies.  "Causes" are for politicians and other REMFs.

I guess they're primarily fighting for survival. The buddies part may play a role, but that's already a statement made after the action.

Well, the heroic acts on the battlefield are often self-sacrificial. I'd think they would qualify as statements in the moment, in a manner of speaking: mute testimony to their love for their brothers, even into death.

[abaris]

Well, the heroic acts on the battlefield are often self-sacrificial. I'd think they would qualify as statements in the moment, in a manner of speaking: mute testimony to their love for their brothers, even into death.

There's no doubt that it plays a role. The ancient Greeks went the whole mile by forming units of lovers, who, going by ancient legends, were the bravest, since they were fighting to keep each other alive.

But going by my grandfathers diary from WWI and accounts from German veterans of WWII, staying alive was always the primary impulse. I'm sure there are many tales of soldiers saving their comrades. But I'm also sure there's a lot of giving the experience at least some meaning by telling you did it for your buddies. Sounds better than just following the natural instinct of survival. But there's also another aspect to these stories. Survival is easier when you're facing a dangerous situation as part of a group you can trust.

[Kingpin]

Not fearing death makes an army strong in my opinion.

In the early 70s this poem was given to Ravi Zacharias written by an American soldier in Vietnam:

Lord God, I have never spoken to you,
but now I want to say how do you do?
You see God they told me you didn't exist,
and like a fool I believed all this.
Last night from a shell hole I saw your sky,
I figured right then they had told me a lie.
Had I take time to see the things you made,
I would have known they weren't calling a spade a spade.
I wonder God if you'll take my hand,
somehow I feel that you'll understand.
Funny how I had come to this hellish place,
before I had time to see your face.
I guess there really isn't much more to say,
but I'm sure glad God that I met you today.
I guess zero hour will soon be here,
But I'm not afraid since I know you're near.
The signal, well God I'll have to go,
I like you lots, I want you to know.
Look now this will be a horrible fight,
who knows I may come to your house tonight.
Though I wasn't friendly to you before,
I wonder God if you'd wait at your door.
Look I'm crying, I'm shedding tears,
I'll have to go now, God, goodbye.
Strange now since I met you,
I'm not afraid to die.

[Psychonaut]

I guess they're primarily fighting for survival. The buddies part may play a role, but that's already a statement made after the action.

Well, the heroic acts on the battlefield are often self-sacrificial. I'd think they would qualify as statements in the moment, in a manner of speaking: mute testimony to their love for their brothers, even into death.

I've seen, and heard of similar behaviours in other species, namely, chimpanzees. There are times when a healthy male will put themselves in danger and possibly die for other members of the troop, by baiting the predator toward themselves, in order that the troop may escape. It lends a lot of credibility to the idea that we are playing in to very ancient traits when engaging in defensive, and offensive violent behaviours as a species. A set of behaviours that our species is yet to overcome (violence that is).

The reason I'm interested in religion's ability to influence this ancient trait, is because it seems as though it further confirms a current theory I've been following in psychology. 

I couldn't explain it better than these guys (as they're the ones who've helped form the theory) 
So i'll provide a link to the documentary that I found on vimeo if you are interested.

https://vimeo.com/104959002


P.S you may have to look around for the other parts to the series, which I'm sure are by the same uploader, as it's set in 3 parts from memory.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well, the heroic acts on the battlefield are often self-sacrificial. I'd think they would qualify as statements in the moment, in a manner of speaking: mute testimony to their love for their brothers, even into death.

There's no doubt that it plays a role. The ancient Greeks went the whole mile by forming units of lovers, who, going by ancient legends, were the bravest, since they were fighting to keep each other alive.

But going by my grandfathers diary from WWI and accounts from German veterans of WWII, staying alive was always the primary impulse. I'm sure there are many tales of soldiers saving their comrades. But I'm also sure there's a lot of giving the experience at least some meaning by telling you did it for your buddies. Sounds better than just following the natural instinct of survival. But there's also another aspect to these stories. Survival is easier when you're facing a dangerous situation as part of a group you can trust.

Yeah, no doubt in a situation as chaotic as combat, the motivations are many and inextricably intertwined, and no doubt survival is a biggie.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well, the heroic acts on the battlefield are often self-sacrificial. I'd think they would qualify as statements in the moment, in a manner of speaking: mute testimony to their love for their brothers, even into death.

I've seen, and heard of similar behaviours in other species, namely, chimpanzees. There are times when a healthy male will put themselves in danger and possibly die for other members of the troop, by baiting the predator toward themselves, in order that the troop may escape. It lends a lot of credibility to the idea that we are playing in to very ancient traits when engaging in defensive, and offensive violent behaviours as a species. A set of behaviours that our species is yet to overcome (violence that is).

The reason I'm interested in religion's ability to influence this ancient trait, is because it seems as though it further confirms a current theory I've been following in psychology. 

I couldn't explain it better than these guys (as they're the ones who've helped form the theory) 
So i'll provide a link to the documentary that I found on vimeo if you are interested.

https://vimeo.com/104959002


P.S you may have to look around for the other parts to the series, which I'm sure are by the same uploader, as it's set in 3 parts from memory.

I'm at home right now and going online through my phone's limited data plan, so I can't watch that now. I'll check it out when I can get to some public wifi. Thanks for putting it up.

[Minimalist]

If you speak to veterans you eventually find that they fight for their buddies.  "Causes" are for politicians and other REMFs.

I guess they're primarily fighting for survival. The buddies part may play a role, but that's already a statement made after the action.

Recall the words of Frederick the Great.

If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one of them would remain in the army.

The ultimate survival motive would be to run away!

[abaris]

The ultimate survival motive would be to run away!

You know, I used to work as a medic some 20 years ago. And there was this volunteer, 60something back then, probably long dead now. And once we sat together and for some reason we discussed the war. And one of my collegues asked that man, why they didn't run away. His answer was, there was always the chance to be shot in the back by an officer if you didn't move forward. That's how they indoctrinated them. And I'm sure it's not that different today. Combine it with peer pressure and you got your reason why they don't run.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

I guess they're primarily fighting for survival. The buddies part may play a role, but that's already a statement made after the action.

Recall the words of Frederick the Great.

If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one of them would remain in the army.

The ultimate survival motive would be to run away!

When people put on military uniforms they become idiots.  They go roaring off to fight, kill, be killed and injured and they don't get squat for it.  In the meantime the politicians, bankers, and businessmen who whipped them into a war fevor sit back laughing at the fools while getting rich.  And when the dummies return home after being broken and abused they are treated like dirty trash until the next time they are fed a line of BS about they are so special for defending the homeland.

[Minimalist]

The ultimate survival motive would be to run away!

You know, I used to work as a medic some 20 years ago. And there was this volunteer, 60something back then, probably long dead now. And once we sat together and for some reason we discussed the war. And one of my collegues asked that man, why they didn't run away. His answer was, there was always the chance to be shot in the back by an officer if you didn't move forward. That's how they indoctrinated them. And I'm sure it's not that different today. Combine it with peer pressure and you got your reason why they don't run.

Many years ago there was a monstrosity of a board game called Wellington's Victory...although it was about Waterloo, not Vittoria.  When set up on 4 full sized maps it was utterly beautiful but one thing you noted was that the infantry set up with the cavalry behind them.  Shortly after the game was released someone wrote an article for a gaming magazine which discussed the set up and pointed out that one of the cavalry's duties was to serve as a battlefield goon squad to keep the infantry pointed in the right direction.