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RE: christian looking to understand athiests
August 18, 2015 at 10:30 am
Welcome OP.
You should start a thread so that we can discuss a topic of your choosing outside of the introductions forum.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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RE: christian looking to understand athiests
August 18, 2015 at 10:32 am
(This post was last modified: August 18, 2015 at 10:35 am by Spooky.)
(August 18, 2015 at 10:25 am)msid Wrote: (August 18, 2015 at 10:18 am)Spooky Wrote: Honestly? At the end of the day, even if your god did exist, it/he/she is a complete douche-bag.
what makes you say that?
Genocidal, Homicidal, Xenophobic, Misogynistic, Sociopathic, Vindictive god who's "perfect" creations are anything but.
Plus I've been to some nasty parts of this world and seen what this imaginary friend can do when real people apply it to their issues.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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RE: christian looking to understand athiests
August 18, 2015 at 10:34 am
(August 18, 2015 at 10:28 am)msid Wrote: no because God created us with a free will and unless we ask him he cant change things that happen in our lives or our choices
You have to ask? Why? Doesn't he know everything and therefore all your needs and desires? Why does he make you beg?
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: christian looking to understand athiests
August 18, 2015 at 10:35 am
(August 18, 2015 at 10:28 am)msid Wrote: (August 18, 2015 at 10:23 am)robvalue Wrote: If God answers prayers, does that mean his initial plans for everyone were suboptimal and he needed advice?
no because God created us with a free will and unless we ask him he cant change things that happen in our lives or our choices
Err... I don't understand that at all, sorry.
So what does he change, when you pray? Does he alter other people's free will in order to fulfil your prayer? What does he do that creates a change exactly?
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RE: christian looking to understand athiests
August 18, 2015 at 10:36 am
(August 18, 2015 at 10:26 am)tjakey Wrote: The Christian who isn't interested in converting anyone is going to end up trying to defend his beliefs, and thus end up trying to convert after all. Once he discovers that isn't happening he will have to admit that his beliefs can't be defended and, if he is any kinds of honest, have to abandon them. More likely he will conclude that we are simply too dumb, to set in our evil ways, or too blinded by the world, to understand his "truth" and will go away even more lost in his illusion. Given that he appears to be convinced that a god is actually answering his prayers, I suspect preaching is about to commence, then he will go away with a self-righteous smug.
There really isn't any other way this can go.
i am not here to convert anyone im just here to discuss the differences between the two views. i wont preach at anyone im just awnsering questions that are being asked. if you think im a self-righteous smug then i suggest you completely forget about this thread because it has no meaning to you
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RE: christian looking to understand athiests
August 18, 2015 at 10:40 am
(This post was last modified: August 18, 2015 at 10:41 am by brewer.)
(August 18, 2015 at 10:23 am)msid Wrote: i believe that God always answers prayer. but the answer isnt always yes. and i know you believe that its all just chance if my prayer is awnsered but its happened so many times that it cant be a coincidence.
also i dont believe in the big bang because of how far fetched it is. its an idea made up by people looking for any other explanation other than God.
it takes WAY more faith not to believe that there was a creator of the universe. if one single mistake had been made in the big bang the whole world could just collapse. the idea that there was just a bang one time millions of years ago that created this perfect earth just takes a lot of faith in nothing to believe I'll accept that you believe and don't believe. I got no problem with that. You go your way, I'll go mine. You and the others interested in debate, have at it.
I'd suggest that you stay away from the "Big Bang" discussion. You're way out of your league on that issue.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
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RE: christian looking to understand athiests
August 18, 2015 at 10:43 am
(August 18, 2015 at 10:34 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote: (August 18, 2015 at 10:28 am)msid Wrote: no because God created us with a free will and unless we ask him he cant change things that happen in our lives or our choices
You have to ask? Why? Doesn't he know everything and therefore all your needs and desires? Why does he make you beg?
because of free will
if i told you that praying isnt nessecary and that God will just make your life however he thinks is best you would say that hes being controlling and we are just puppets.
if you dont ask he wont help because you chose not to pray and therefore you dont want his help
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RE: christian looking to understand athiests
August 18, 2015 at 10:43 am
(August 18, 2015 at 10:23 am)msid Wrote:
i believe that God always answers prayer. but the answer isnt always yes. and i know you believe that its all just chance if my prayer is awnsered but its happened so many times that it cant be a coincidence.
also i dont believe in the big bang because of how far fetched it is. its an idea made up by people looking for any other explanation other than God.
it takes WAY more faith not to believe that there was a creator of the universe. if one single mistake had been made in the big bang the whole world could just collapse. the idea that there was just a bang one time millions of years ago that created this perfect earth just takes a lot of faith in nothing to believe
If the outcome is always interpreted as an answer to prayer, then even coincidences will be interpreted that way. You're not seeing the coincidences because you're reading something into them that makes them seem like more than coincidence.
Here's a good illustration of what I'm talking about:
As for the Big Bang, no, it doesn't really take that much faith to believe that the Universe in its current state originated with a rapid outward expansion of matter and energy. Furthermore, regardless of how much faith it takes, that's what the evidence says.
Your assertion might hold a little weight if particles were just randomly whizzing around the Universe waiting to slam into each other, but that's not the case. Particles and bodies of matter have a tendency to clump together and form semi-orderly systems because of consistent universal forces like gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces.
Besides, Earth only showed up after billions of years of energy and matter cooling, changing, and hurtling through space. The "Ferrari Analogy" with a tornado or explosion isn't exactly accurate. The Earth isn't the result of a single chaotic event so much as it is the result of slow change over massive periods of time.
One thing you're right about, though: if even one particle had been in a different place at the moment of the Bang, Earth probably wouldn't be here with us on it. If a different sperm had met a different egg, you and I wouldn't be the ones sitting at these computers having this discussion. What this means is that we're extraordinarily lucky to be here. Nothing more, nothing less. Life is precious specifically because it is finite and is the result of monumental odds. Rare doesn't mean impossible, and if it isn't impossible it doesn't require a miracle. All it takes is time, and the Universe has been around for a LOOONG time.
Verbatim from the mouth of Jesus (retranslated from a retranslation of a copy of a copy):
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you too will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. How can you see your brother's head up his ass when your own vision is darkened by your head being even further up your ass? How can you say to your brother, 'Get your head out of your ass,' when all the time your head is up your own ass? You hypocrite! First take your head out of your own ass, and then you will see clearly who has his head up his ass and who doesn't." Matthew 7:1-5 (also Luke 6: 41-42)
Also, I has a website: www.RedbeardThePink.com
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RE: christian looking to understand athiests
August 18, 2015 at 10:44 am
(August 18, 2015 at 10:30 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: Welcome OP.
You should start a thread so that we can discuss a topic of your choosing outside of the introductions forum.
This is his first thread but it seems to be in the "atheism" subform. Am I reading that wrong?
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RE: christian looking to understand athiests
August 18, 2015 at 10:49 am
(August 18, 2015 at 10:35 am)robvalue Wrote: (August 18, 2015 at 10:28 am)msid Wrote: no because God created us with a free will and unless we ask him he cant change things that happen in our lives or our choices
Err... I don't understand that at all, sorry.
So what does he change, when you pray? Does he alter other people's free will in order to fulfil your prayer? What does he do that creates a change exactly?
he cant and never will change anyones free will because we are all entitled to believe whatever we want and do whatever we want. theres been many different ways that he answers prayers. if i tried to explain any someone would just say its a coincidence or luck.
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