How Do We Respect Other People's Beliefs?

[CapnAwesome]

My answer: I don't. If you believe something ridiculous or something evil, you have no right to respect from me.

[Minimalist]

It really is simple. Just treat them the way you want to be treated. Do you want Christians to get in your face about your atheism? No? Then don't get in their face about their Christianity lol.

I have a hard time attributing good motives to xtians who show up at an atheist forum telling us how wonderful "jesus" is.  They all seem to have that proselytizing gene.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

You must be joking. First of all, we are badgered constantly for our non-belief, particularly from members of our former (since many of us are ex-Christians) religious groups, including family, and pressured into at least giving the appearance of conformity. To a great many of us, that "appearance of conformity" is the same as our identities being extinguished, however briefly, and we don't see refusing to participate in the rituals of our religious friends/relatives/acquaintances as "badgering".

This is a strawman argument, Rocket.

I never said you weren't badgered constantly, and I never said refusing to participate in someone's religion constitutes as badgering.

It's not a strawman argument. Your statement implied that we should not "badger" Christians because we would not appreciate being badgered. I returned with the reply that we are badgered. Constantly. And yet we are the ones who are deemed "angry" if we respond in kind.

It was on that basis that I then pointed out that the reason we're so often badgered is because others believe that if we do not conform, we are in need of pressure to do so. All "out of love", of course. Well, most of it out of love. Some is just plain bigotry.

The "you must be joking" was in reference to your statement:

"Btw, you're the first person I've ever talked to who objects to the "treat others the way you want them to treat you" rule lol. Interesting perspective."

...to which I replied with the Sagan analysis in Chapter 16 of Billions and Billions, which includes the problem of how we are treated and expected to treat others in return, with regards to "badgering".


Edit to Add: Sagan does not discuss the badgering part. He discusses "tit for tat", which is somewhat the model in which we try to be nice to theists, then return their badgering with bager-counterfire. Thus it is "in regards to badgering" that Sagan explains the models of moral behavior.

[Catholic_Lady]

This is a strawman argument, Rocket.

I never said you weren't badgered constantly, and I never said refusing to participate in someone's religion constitutes as badgering.

It's not a strawman argument. Your statement implied that we should not "badger" Christians because we would not appreciate being badgered. I returned with the reply that we are badgered. Constantly. And yet we are the ones who are deemed "angry" if we respond in kind.

It was on that basis that I then pointed out that the reason we're so often badgered is because others believe that if we do not conform, we are in need of pressure to do so. All "out of love", of course. Well, most of it out of love. Some is just plain bigotry.

Right, so if you don't like it when people do it to you, then don't do it to others lol.

[thehedglin]

Right, so if you don't like it when people do it to you, then don't do it to others lol.

Let us hope that all the masochists or suicidal people out there don't take your advice.

[Catholic_Lady]

Right, so if you don't like it when people do it to you, then don't do it to others lol.

Let us hope that all the masochists or suicidal people out there don't take your advice.

Well obviously when someone is about to do something illegal or hurt themselves, or hurt another person, that's completely different than badgering someone because they do or don't believe in God. 

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's not a strawman argument. Your statement implied that we should not "badger" Christians because we would not appreciate being badgered. I returned with the reply that we are badgered. Constantly. And yet we are the ones who are deemed "angry" if we respond in kind.

It was on that basis that I then pointed out that the reason we're so often badgered is because others believe that if we do not conform, we are in need of pressure to do so. All "out of love", of course. Well, most of it out of love. Some is just plain bigotry.

Right, so if you don't like it when people do it to you, then don't do it to others lol.

If somebody doesn't extend me a basic courtesy, they have no right to expect that my reply will be courteous.

I make change in the coin tendered. If anyone wants courtesy, they need to demonstrate it in their own actions.

[Cecelia]

I think it's more a matter of respecting people's feelings and general politeness. If an individual is decent and kind, I have no issue accommodating their beliefs (within reason). Two recent examples:

While attending a religious memorial service (Episcopal), I bowed my head at the appropriate moments and followed all of the general protocols. Why? Because a service where people are grieving is not the time to take a stand or make a statement. 

I ran into a hospice nurse that I used to work with over 11 years ago, when I was attended church and still believed. Of course, she assumed I still did and proceeded to go on for a few minutes about blah, blah, blah and got teary-eyed during the process. You know what I did? I politely nodded my head and said " Oh. Mmm hmm. Really? Yes, I'm sure Kirk Cameron films are very interesting."

She is easily one of the nicest people I've ever known. What would be the point of interrupting a 3 or 4 minute conversation to say "God isn't real....would you like to know  more?" Especially knowing that this woman carries the burden of dealing with death and dying every day.

Btw, I would only consider this an issue in day to day, personal interactions.  It's not particularly relevant when it comes down to public issues, legal matters or social justice.

I agree.

When my mother-in-law died, we had to travel to attend her service because she wanted to be buried where she was born.  I had to take off work a few days.  We decided to bring most of our kids with us, while leaving the youngest with my dad.  Both of us agreed they had a right to say goodbye to their grandma.  And his mom had requested Grave Side Rites, so we figured there wouldn't be much chance of them getting caught up in religion.  (We want them to decide for themselves with no biases toward or against any religion.) 

Of course, my husband's side of the family decide that it wouldn't hurt to do a service.  Even though that's not what his mother wanted.  (She was religious afaik, but she felt there was no point in having a service).  My husband didn't really fight it, he figured "Well, it's more for them than it is for her.  A small service will be okay."  The service wasn't really bad at least, and the Preacher was certainly nicer than most. 

I think the only time I really wanted to say something was when everyone kept saying "Well, she's in a better place now."  Especially when one woman said "I wish I could be in that better place too."  It bothered me mostly because I was worried about what our kids would think.  I mean going to a better place... it makes it sound like dying is a good thing.  (My husband's side of the family has some weird views.  Which is why we don't go around them too much.  .  And I'm not just talking religious views.   They're reasonable in some ways, and certainly not in others. Of course that's not all of them.  Many of them are really nice people who don't talk religion or politics.)  We explained to our kids that what they meant by a better place was that she wasn't suffering anymore.  I felt like that was the best we could do.

There's a time and a place for everything.  Some people have a deep personal need to believe.  And as long as they're not hurting anyone, I wouldn't want to try to take that away from them.  

Respect their feelings, not their beliefs.  For me, that only goes out the window if the people aren't respecting my feelings or are being ridiculous about something.  And do not talk bad about my children.  If you do that, then you better start talking to yourself about hoping that your god exists and that he will help you.  Because that's something I do not find acceptable from anyone.

[Minimalist]

[TheRocketSurgeon]

It's not a strawman argument. Your statement implied that we should not "badger" Christians because we would not appreciate being badgered. I returned with the reply that we are badgered. Constantly. And yet we are the ones who are deemed "angry" if we respond in kind.

It was on that basis that I then pointed out that the reason we're so often badgered is because others believe that if we do not conform, we are in need of pressure to do so. All "out of love", of course. Well, most of it out of love. Some is just plain bigotry.

Right, so if you don't like it when people do it to you, then don't do it to others lol.

I don't do it to others until and unless they disrespect me. Unfortunately, that's nearly all the time, in which case I will respond (still in the most polite manner I can manage, despite my anger at being blatantly disrespected), and I am the one whom they pretend has caused offense.

First try to be cooperative, then respond to attacks with counterattacks. That's roughly Sagan's description of the natural "Tit for Tat" Rule, which seems to be the inherent morality of most social species, including humans. You really should read the link I posted.