The "not all Muslims are terrorists" fallacy

[Catholic_Lady]

Ok. But if you're going to make a post addressing me/about me, then I'm not sure why you think it's right to tell me not to respond to it.

This is why I find you so infuriating to talk to. You become so concerned with pedantry that any semblance of a point goes straight over your head.

I never said don't answer my post, or my point. I said don't answer that one question contained within because I predict that the answer you'd give wouldn't be something I find agreeable anyway. It's not that question that is the point of my post, which is precisely why I told you not to answer that question.

But if you can't figure out the actual point on your own then don't bother responding. Not because I'm telling you not to respond, but because it's only wasting everyone's time.

Oh just the one question? Oh, ok then. So I'm just supposed to not be concerned with the "pedantry" of the fact that 1. you told me not to answer a question you asked me, and 2. that you already know ahead of time that you won't agree, like you won't even consider or listen to my points. Alright then. Let me get right back to responding to your post then, as I'm sure it'll be a very productive discussion.  

And yeah, you're right. Ever since I came back from my month long break, I've been less tolerant of people talking to me like crap. If you want to call that pedantry and being overly sensitive, go right ahead. But there's only so much of it I think is healthy for a person to take, so if you talk to me like dirty, chances are I'm not going to respond adequately. I'm sorry if that "infuriates" you, but I came here to have respectful discussions with different minded people, not to be verbally abused.    

I think you're extremely rude and arrogant, and you've had a chip on your shoulder about me ever since that thread where you told me some pretty crappy stuff including that the only reason anyone here "pretends" to respect me is because I suck their d*cks, . Yeah, that one that Tiberius had to intervene in and had to close down because of what you were saying to me.

I usually try to get along with people, and try not to simply dismiss them because they treated me like crap in the past, and in this thread I was genuinely trying to find some common ground and be on better terms with you because I hate the feeling of disliking someone so strongly and I hate holding grudges. I'm not putting you on my ignore list, but it was a mistake to think I could have a respectable discussion with you. Even on a topic we agree on, you just couldn't wait to turn it around on me and be a jerk about it.

[Catholic_Lady]

Because 1) it's their family and community, and they belong to that community in a way that it's harder for individualist Americans to grasp, outside of our own communities that do the same. They're a part of it. And 2) they don't want to leave the religion, they just want to be faithful the best way they know how. Unfortunately, there's some really awful baggage that accompanies that particular social club.

What are they going to do, convert to another faith they don't believe in? Become atheists?

I mean, we'd be glad to see that happening, but I doubt you'd convert from Catholicism if the church was doing significantly more wrong than they do, especially if your family was likely to try to find and kill you if you did.

I can respect your empathy towards Muslims people for not standing up more, and I wish I had more of it in this case. But I think everything you're saying is just making Islam look worse, not better. 

[TheRocketSurgeon]

I can respect your empathy towards Muslims people for not standing up more, and I wish I had more of it in this case. But I think everything you're saying is just making Islam look worse, not better. 

I try to show empathy for all people, to really understand where they're coming from, not just from my own perspective. I find the "trick" of reversing roles in my mind to be most useful in doing this.

On the other hand, I don't think it's possible to make Islam look much worse than it already does for itself. Of all the faith-practices on this planet which I abhor, theirs is the one most fraught with intellectual (as well as physical, of course) terrorism. That said, I also know several Muslims, both from my prison experience and before, who are wonderful people, and I try to caution my fellow infidels against attacking all Muslims simply because their religion overall has taken on a social philosophy that is, simply, insane.

I can empathize with the individual adherent without justifying the trends and practices of the religion as a whole. I often do the same with Christianity, of course, the faith which I am forced (as both a Southerner and former scientist) by aggressive members to stand up and combat most often. And yet, I am engaged to be married to a Christian, whom I love more than anything else on this earth, and whom I respect completely -- in part because she is a scientist, does not reject anything that science has discovered out of an intellectually-dishonest desire to cling to dogma, and fully admits which parts of her belief are entirely based on faith rather than knowledge. She doesn't think less of me because I am not a Christian, and has vehemently defended me against members of her church and family who have criticized her for being with me. (Her family now adores me, though, now that they know the difference between what they used to think about atheists, via propaganda, and the reality.) Respect for individuals and the right to believe is a core tenet of Secular Humanism, but likewise so is the commitment to combat any form of belief which seeks to squash dissent and/or intimidate others into believing, especially in realms where the beliefs being pushed so aggressively are counter to human rights or are demonstrably false.

[Catholic_Lady]

I can respect your empathy towards Muslims people for not standing up more, and I wish I had more of it in this case. But I think everything you're saying is just making Islam look worse, not better. 

I try to show empathy for all people, to really understand where they're coming from, not just from my own perspective. I find the "trick" of reversing roles in my mind to be most useful in doing this.

On the other hand, I don't think it's possible to make Islam look much worse than it already does for itself. Of all the faith-practices on this planet which I abhor, theirs is the one most fraught with intellectual (as well as physical, of course) terrorism. That said, I also know several Muslims, both from my prison experience and before, who are wonderful people, and I try to caution my fellow infidels against attacking all Muslims simply because their religion overall has taken on a social philosophy that is, simply, insane.

I can empathize with the individual adherent without justifying the trends and practices of the religion as a whole. I often do the same with Christianity, of course, the faith which I am forced (as both a Southerner and former scientist) by aggressive members to stand up and combat most often. And yet, I am engaged to be married to a Christian, whom I love more than anything else on this earth, and whom I respect completely -- in part because she is a scientist, does not reject anything that science has discovered out of an intellectually-dishonest desire to cling to dogma, and fully admits which parts of her belief are entirely based on faith rather than knowledge. She doesn't think less of me because I am not a Christian, and has vehemently defended me against members of her church and family who have criticized her for being with me. (Her family now adores me, though, now that they know the difference between what they used to think about atheists, via propaganda, and the reality.) Respect for individuals and the right to believe is a core tenet of Secular Humanism, but likewise so is the commitment to combat any form of belief which seeks to squash dissent and/or intimidate others into believing, especially in realms where the beliefs being pushed so aggressively are counter to human rights or are demonstrably false.

Wow. I love this post. I really learned something from you today. Glad you joined the forums! 

[Napoléon]

Oh just the one question? Oh, ok then. So I'm just supposed to not be concerned with the "pedantry" of the fact that 1. you told me not to answer a question you asked me, and 2. that you already know ahead of time that you won't agree, like you won't even consider or listen to my points. Alright then. Let me get right back to responding to your post then, as I'm sure it'll be a very productive discussion.  

1. It was a rhetorical question.
2. I said I wouldn't find your come back to a rhetorical question agreeable (which to be fair, was just an assumption, but I thought it was fairly obvious that it was such), so told you to not bother answering that particular question, which was more for your benefit than mine if anything. I didn't see the point in taking the discussion down that route. I never said I wouldn't consider your points, if you had any in response to the overall point of the actual post. You've projected these things onto my post and yet again ignore what my underlying point was. 

And yeah, you're right. Ever since I came back from my month long break, I've been less tolerant of people talking to me like crap. If you want to call that pedantry and being overly sensitive, go right ahead. But there's only so much of it I think is healthy for a person to take, so if you talk to me like dirty, chances are I'm not going to respond adequately. I'm sorry if that "infuriates" you, but I came here to have respectful discussions with different minded people, not to be verbally abused.    

Finally, some actual balls! I like you better already. I don't particularly give a damn what you talk to me like, hell I think it's healthier to be frank and honest, even if that means being a little rude to each other from time to time. Even to people you consider good friends. I like to address someone based on the content of what they actually say, at least on a forum such as this. 

I value criticism and debate as more 'productive' than JAQing off sessions frankly. 

*edit, I also remember upon your return you saying you weren't going to get involved in such religious or political discussions "because they're rarely productive" or some other such nonsense. What happened to that idea? One minute you're saying you'll ignore the heated the discussion and the next you're whining when you're suddenly in one.

I think you're extremely rude and arrogant, and you've had a chip on your shoulder about me ever since that thread where you told me some pretty crappy stuff including that the only reason anyone here "pretends" to respect me is because I suck their d*cks, . Yeah, that one that Tiberius had to intervene in and had to close down because of what you were saying to me.

You did then, exactly what you are doing now. You got caught up on the fact I said "dick" instead of addressing my actual contention, my actual criticism. You seem to think I implied that you literally suck people's dicks in order for them to like you. You even at one stage said it was to gain approval strictly from the male members of the forum. That's not what I said. At any point. The only reason I kept saying you sucked dicks, over and over, was because you kept doing what I said you were doing, over and over. 

I've already had these discussions with Tiberius, and he knows full well my thoughts on the entire matter, I even sent you a massive PM about why I thought and said the things I did, which you didn't respond to. Which is funny, because that was a time when you asked me a question, but obviously didn't like the answer you got enough to give me a response. Double standard much.

And you wonder why I think discussions with you are futile?

What you've just done now, in making this once again all about you and bringing up a spat from the past, is just another thing to suggest my suspicions about your intent in a lot of your posts are spot on. The whole point of me constantly saying you sucked dick was to highlight every time you sought approval from other members. And you're doing it again by bringing up "what Tiberius had to do because of the nasty man" and reminding us all that you took a month long break because you got too stressed out on a damn internet forum. You're more of an attention whore than I am for christ sake! 

I usually try to get along with people, and try not to simply dismiss them because they treated me like crap in the past, and in this thread I was genuinely trying to find some common ground and be on better terms with you because I hate the feeling of disliking someone so strongly and I hate holding grudges. I'm not putting you on my ignore list, but it was a mistake to think I could have a respectable discussion with you. Even on a topic we agree on, you just couldn't wait to turn it around on me and be a jerk about it.

I know it seems easy for me to say, but I really don't think you get the nuance in a lot of my posts. I don't know if it's because we come from totally different places and you just don't get that when I shout "bullshit you cunt!", It's not personal in the slightest, or whether you're just that sensitive that you cry every time I call you out on something. I really just don't know. 

I actually think I've been quite respectful in this thread, at least towards you. 

You seem to think I have some kind of vendetta against you when I don't. I address your bullshit the same as whenever I see anyone else's bullshit. If GC were in this thread, or Drich, or Randy Carson, or any other theist, I'd have said the exact same thing to them after seeing them agree with something right up until the point it involves criticising their own staunchly held convictions.

Anyone who criticises you is automatically deemed to be disrespectful, and it's tantamount to emotional blackmail that nobody can call you out when you show your hypocrisy, like we would for anyone else, for fear of offending you. 

With all due respect CL, I think you need to get over yourself.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

You're more of an attention whore than I am for christ sake!

Oh come on, now, Napoléon, don't be so hard on yourself. You're still the top whore in my book!

 

[pocaracas]

the only reason anyone here "pretends" to respect me is because I suck their d*cks, .

Hold it!
I don't remember getting my willy in your mouth... when did those things happen to everyone else?!
I demand my sucking by CL!

[Catholic_Lady]

I don't remember getting my willy in your mouth... when did those things happen to everyone else?!  

Lol, I have no idea. It was news to me when Napo told me I was doing it. Perhaps you should ask him. 

[TheRocketSurgeon]

I don't remember getting my willy in your mouth... when did those things happen to everyone else?!  

Lol, I have no idea. It was news to me when Napo told me I was doing it. Perhaps you should ask him. 

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[Mystic]

Whatever the case is, too many Muslims are terrorist. It's a problem we need to deal with.