A doctrine of alienation

[TheRocketSurgeon]

I don't really like strip clubs. I don't judge those who work there, nor pity them, except for those who took on that career out of the desperation of poverty (but then, what job can't be described that way?) or who are drug addicts getting sucked deeper into that world. The reason I don't like them is I see them for what they are: we have made sex and especially female nudity a taboo thing, in this Christian-influenced culture, and as such it produces a tantalizing effect on those who see it as the untouchable thing just out of reach. Me, I don't see the subject as taboo, and I don't get excited by women I am not actually intimate with; also, I see the women in the job as they really are, I know a few women who do that job, I've listened to what they told me, and so I don't fall for the fantasy. Therefore it is not a "temptation" to me.

Perhaps it is the fact that I don't see it as a "sin" that makes it neither appealing nor a threat to me. Likewise, the only thing about Christianity that bothers me is the threat that it represents to me, both in terms of attempts to legislate their beliefs into law and/or a position of dominance (see e.g. 1954, with the Pledge and the Motto, or the National Day of Prayer ceremonies), and in terms of their "doctrine of alienation", in which they teach their followers to turn off their brains to any outside influence (cult, much?) and to separate from anyone, even family and loved ones, who might tell them they're in that cult religion for poor reasons.

[Neo-Scholastic]

How does something like revelations square away with your attempts to avoid violent entertainment for fear of becoming callous or jaded, btw?  

Nit-pick, it's Revelation (singluar), not Revelations (plural). 1) There is a difference between the glorification of senseless violence and the actions of justice. 2) The end result of the Apocalypse starts in Chapter 21, with the birth of a new heaven and a new earth in which He will wipe the tears from our eyes and there will be no more mourning or death for those things will have passed away. It is a book of hope and joy.

[The Grand Nudger]

A book of joy and hope.....filled with violence and degradation.  Sounds like a war movie, or a mob movie... Personally, I see no justice there, I see glorification of senseless acts of violence - even more..deification of senseless acts of violence (and not just there, throughout the entirety of the OT and NT).

Mind you, I love stories, I think that the biblical narrative would be utter garbage if it weren;t for all the blood and gore and sex, all the boot stomping, popcorn munching human drama...............I don't begrudge it that device, lol. I just wonder what it is that twists your panties when Dolph Lundgren strings villagers ears together, but somehow when David makes a belt of phillistine foreskin.....it's different, why one is to be avoided and the other is the exact opposite, to be poured over and studied and reread to no end - that one is unacceptable -even as entertainment-...while the other forms the foundational fabric of an acceptable religion. Seems like you're making special exceptions for a pet narrative. Seems hypocritical, even sanctimonious.....to me.

No one will be wiping any tears from my eyes, btw. I'll be crushed beneath the cruel boot of King Jesus and/or left to whither being tormented by the denziens of hell...or failing all of that - shuffled off into eternal solitary confinement.... all "justice" for the "crime" of not bending the knee and daring to be so uppity as to not believe that there's any -actual- justice (let alone hope or joy) in that narrative. This is something that wouldn't change if I saw the heavenly host descend and the narrative begin to unfold in the real world. That would only serve to calcify my opinion completely.

I'm not part of your in-group, or hadn't you heard?

[Neo-Scholastic]

No one will be wiping any tears from my eyes, btw.  I'll be crushed beneath the cruel boot of King Jesus and/or left to whither being tormented by the denziens of hell...or failing all of that - shuffled off into eternal solitary confinement....

Neither. You will be left outside the walls of the New Jerusalem with the rest of your kind.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Neither. You will be left outside the walls of the New Jerusalem with the rest of your kind.

Sweet!

Announcement to the rest of youz guyz: I'll be throwing an eternal infidels party at the South Gate, with these guys.

[The Grand Nudger]

Neither. You will be left outside the walls of the New Jerusalem with the rest of your kind.

Oh...I see... "Hope and Joy"..Hallellujah!...lol?  Outside those walls....anything I ought to know before that happens....or is it gonna be another one of my thursdays?

In any case...regarding strings of ears and foreskins.....and which is to be avoided whilst the other worshipped, and why..again? I seem to have missed any actual discussion on that count.

[Mystical]

Seems your brother has traded one vice for another.  Sucks, but that's how the SA makes their nut.  Who dropped him off with those ghouls in the first place, or did he just float down the drain into their clutches?

My brother has been reliant upon living with one family member or another since he turned 18. He dropped out of diesel mechanic school merely months away from completion. Hasn't been able to hold jobs down for the same reason he quit school; he rage quits. Once his truck got repossessed he resorted to buying beer for underage kids where he lived and doing acid. My uncle gave him a second, third try (being unabl to afford mortgage on his own for each of those times), but he ended up just sleeping away his troubles till he ended up on the street. My mom and step mom got him in there, which is a feat considering Colorados overpopulation issues. My step mom used to work with the people there as a drug counselor. I don't quite expect my brother to do anything to improve from here--but maybe, maybe he will. I know it sounds pessimistic but I've spent years hoping and praying for my father. Without medical intervention they just keep goin down the drain despite my offers of support and resolution. To my father the only way I could help him in his eyes was to live in his fantasy world which I literally could no longer do with sound conscience for his and others well being.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

No one will be wiping any tears from my eyes, btw.  I'll be crushed beneath the cruel boot of King Jesus and/or left to whither being tormented by the denziens of hell...or failing all of that - shuffled off into eternal solitary confinement....

Neither. You will be left outside the walls of the New Jerusalem with the rest of your kind.

Unless you are a Jew how do you expect to get in when there's no gate for you to enter the golden cube called New Jerusalem?  Hint:  the name means that it's only for Jews.    So if you're a Gentile it's the lake of fire for you.

[Mystical]

---

Christians, if you are here reading this you are already lost among the flocks. Having an open mind, being who you are, following what you think is right-- it's not the religion you profess to follow. Pretty much, yer doin it wrong. The truth of the bible is this:


I have a lot to say on this particular subject in general, but most recently I was invited to my brothers new place. He "quit drinking" and has finished a program for homeless via Salvation Army where they took 80% of his paycheck (of jobs they found for him) and now he has a place of his own. I told him how proud I was, he's 25 it's his first place. I asked if we could spend as much time before I moved out of state as possible with him to which at first he said he would love to see me! Then he replied:


I feel as if he's just built a giant wall and left me out in the dust. This kid I grew up with toe to toe shoulder to shoulder--is every year pushing himself away from me, and my mom (whose LGBT). He's said some of the most disgusting things he could say to us like how I'll end up a puke slathered corpse one day on the side of the highway (when I told him I no longer believed in the abrahamic god). He's disowned and repaired and disowned my mom so many times it's mean, and he hangs out with my cousin who also professes Christ is King! In the middle of stores and stuff like a weirdo. But that cousin? Has secret threesome sex with his wife and other men. Some good Christian man he is. He's an ugly person inside, I found out the hard way and others have as well. One day so too will my brother. But until then, I'm the one he has alienated. Not based upon who I am as a person, how much love I have to give him, how tolerant I am of his 'faith', or what have you--I'm deemed the leper solely because he fears me based on the words in a book he read. This kid, whom I taught to read, read something and now thinks I'm something to be avoided.

That, my friends, is the inevitability of Christiantity. Separation, alienation, and lifelong prejudice.

---

Division does not have to mean hate. it simply means separation. For some, they must separate themselves from all contact from what they deem sinful influences. For others not so much. we are all different members of the same body,meaning we all have different functions. For your brother being new to all of this is 'young in the faith' Paul tells us those young in the faith need the milk of the word. Meaning we need out rules and boundries. He says this right after giving the example of those young in the faith who still think it is a sin to eat meat offered to idols. For Him who is mature in the faith says there is nothing wrong with eating the meat offered to idles because the idols represent nothing. But, for those who need 'spiritual milk' eating meat offered to idols is still a sin. for them Paul says he wouldn't eat any meat ever again, just so one would not stumble and compromise what they believe.

The bottom line being, Christianity is not about bondage to rules, it is freedom from them. A place like the salvation Army has to provide a 'milk' message because of the nature of the people they minister to. If/when your brother matures in his faith things will change.

(And no freedom from the law does not abolish the law, the law itself allows freedom from its rules through sacrifice.)

---

Thank you all for your replies. It occurred to me that yes he probably is reliant on what he was taught via the organization that has helped him make positive changes in his life. I have no malice towards it now, I am at peace. If he needs a crutch to get his wounded body moving again then that's what crutches are for! One day he might drop the crutch and walk on his own. Till then I don't wish to intervene in his recovery. I don't hold out much hope for him though, that's why I said I mourned him long ago. My father too; I am not even sure whether I should put out a missing persons report on him. He has chosen to die and go to heaven rather than live here. I can't say I haven't had similar sentiments when I was a believer and at the darkest of hours.. But now I don't believe in an after life. (I merely hope) and that is what keeps me going forward, taking poison pills and Iv meds to keep my body from all out shutting itself down . We all find our own ways to keep going. I'm still proud of him for finally doing that! All on his own . I've decided to visit him with my mom this weekend, and bring him that house warming gift after all. Hopefully I don't endanger his recovery by being there, but I don't think love can hurt and that's all I want to do is love him. I'm glad I got some theists commenting instead of ignoring something like this. Thank you.

---

You being there making him deal with his feelings for you and feeling for God will make him Seek a way to reconcile both. Whether he does this scripturally or whether he does this by turning from God is on him in the end (I can truly help if you want to offer a scriptural balance to him) I had to reconcile my own father after an 8 year silence between us. (His was/is a lot deeper than what you described.) Yet their is still freedom in our faith to reconcile if it is in our hearts to do so.

Sorry it's taken me some time to get back to this thread; it's the only one I follow, even. 

Anyways the above has been highlighted by me. :

Why would having dinner with your sister and mother be considered a harmful influence, to be avoided? Even if I am a non believer (amazingly my mother is still)--he's the one going out of his way to control our interactions. As a matter of fact, he's going out of his way to ensure I don't even make it to the party and feel blame free about it. It's his way or the highway. My dad does the same thing; he won't have a conversation with me about politics or the bible unless it's mouth to mouth, won't accept letters (I've been given back ten years worth of Unopened birthday cards and christmas cards in past, just take a moment to imagine that), won't accept an email conversation, won't accept a phone call conversation. It has to be on his terms, when I am at my weakest (without the proof needed to refute his assertions), face to face with no referee to ensure a fair fight against his overbearing personality. Because that is what it becomes, with him. A fight. I grew up nodding like a good girl, crying when mom wouldn't/couldn't and they'd fight. Can you believe he held her hostage with that one verse about how she'll go to hell if she divorces him while he still breathes, whether he refuses to go to counseling or not?! For twenty years she was verbally abused, berated, and humiliated. All because a book says so  (and yes, he'd pick that book up and hold it in his hand when he told her how she should act). They divorced when I was 14.  At some point (17, I believe it was), I just decided that despite his mental illness I was going to do what I could to be a good daughter to him. So I let him talk. I'd listen, and not respond to obvious prods as best I could. I'd hug him even when he'd get himself so worked up at me that I wouldn't agree with him that gay people are pedophiles or mosques should be bombed, etc. and I'd hope that having at least one person in his life would make the difference between life and a noose. Well, he's chosen the slow noose and I can't be there for him for that, and my brother seems to be on an accelerated rate of mental illness than my father was. He's also inherited the book and is bound by its' words.

I don't want to fight. I don't want want to even talk about the bible, or their opinions on things we disagree about. For me they can believe what they want and I'll still try to enjoy their company. The feeling of being with them as people--not representatives of viewpoints-- is what I seek. Why must they run from such a simple thing as being themselves, and only themselves, with other people who love them? Why can't there just be peace? I feel like it's because they've built mental walls that cannot be brought down because then they'd remember that they used to have free wills, and thoughts of their own. They're afraid of the thought police but at the same time it's frightening to be alone. I see it time and time again in "believers" everywhere, of all denominations and religions. They have their comfort zone; they feel they know who they are in that zone, and can identify the corners of the field and where they are within it and it's completely in their control. Without their religious persona, they'd feel naked. For some, they would be naked; totally incompetent to make decisions on their own. Luckily I was able to take some of the good lessons from the bible and keep those, and priorly deciding to be good willed, I am still. They're more life lessons, than anything though. Do unto others as you'd have done to you, etc. Since I dropped Christianity altogether, I've tried things and failed at other things since then, but I'm still me. My opinions and decisions are my own. I consider myself a better me. I've lost a lot of baggage. Like ghosts? All believers I know constantly remark about how their houses are haunted, and push as far as they can any physical anomalies they notice. Instead of assuming there's something I can't see or touch or feel in the room with me, I don't fear anymore when the door blows the door shut. The wind, just blew, the door, shut. I have had to look at every issue and re-assess what I believe to be true or false and I do it as informed as possible. I'm a better person now because I'm no longer in conflict with what I was told I should believe vs what felt right in my heart. I considered myself a bad christian for not proselytizing, or being confrontational with those who obviously needed "saved". Or say, talking to an atheist (the first one I eventually married mind you). That wasn't me. I'm non confrontational in real life, and open minded to the core. These are only a few of many examples of the many contradictions I felt with the bible.


"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

How can you possibly reconcile the above verse, and what the OT says to do with regards to people like me, or LGBT, or a starving man who simply wants to eat some meat that was being wasted on an altar? Furthermore, how can you say that those young ones are wrong? Jesus made it pretty clear. What my brother believes is valid per the word of the bible--Actually per the word of god himself, Jesus Christ. What you believe about the bible being one thing to one person and another to another is true--but by what measure do you say your interpretation is the correct one? You can't pick one thing Jesus says to be truth and another to be sorta truth. Either it is or it isn't, because we aren't talking about a man here--we're talking about what you and others consider to be the literal words of god written down on paper in a book meant for believers to follow to the T with the threat of eternal damnation at stake.

 Whether he does this scripturally or whether he does this by turning from God is on him in the end (I can truly help if you want to offer a scriptural balance to him) I had to reconcile my own father after an 8 year silence between us. (His was/is a lot deeper than what you described.) Yet their is still freedom in our faith to reconcile if it is in our hearts to do so.

I'll take you up on the first offer.

The bolded, I have trouble seeing how you will be able to pull off but I'm open to using any way possible to be able to see my brother. The last time I saw him he was very sick (strung out) and I sobbed uncontrollably afterwards, but I wouldn't take back having dropped in on his cave just to give him a hug, for the world. I live for hugs. 


Hope you're well, 
Luckie

[Mystical]

Neither. You will be left outside the walls of the New Jerusalem with the rest of your kind.

Oh...I see... "Hope and Joy"..Hallellujah!...lol?  Outside those walls....anything I ought to know before that happens....or is it gonna be another one of my thursdays?

In any case...regarding strings of ears and foreskins.....and which is to be avoided whilst the other worshipped, and why..again?  I seem to have missed any actual discussion on that count.

Not surprisingly, Chad doesn't want to talk about foreskin necklaces, Rhythm. Might stick with the strippers instead, at least they know what a Gstring is.