A discussion around family table.

[fr0d0]

The 10 commandments were given to a people who needed rules to live by after emerging from slavery to the Egyptians.

Why wouldn't God have given them perfected rules then? Why give them defective ones? I'm really beginning to doubt this god's skills you know. Why didn't he do it right the first time? And please don't say it was in context for the time. Injustice and cruelty are never ok just because of what year it happens to be. That's insane.

Why do you presume to know what God should do? All of time is already known to God. History unfolds and God acts as and when he chooses... when the time is right.

We are not 'under' the rules but liberated 'by' them.

No. Rules are a restriction of freedom. When it's a good and just rule, it restricts only the freedom to harm others like in murder or theft. When it's a bad rule, like your god's rule against thinking nice thoughts about other gods, that also is a restriction of freedom, but an injust restriction. so, just or not, it's still a restriction of a freedom. How on earth does following your god's rules liberate? Are you referring to the freedom from being penalized should you not have followed the rules?

Rules in society enable the vast majority to enjoy safety. Children in anarchy are unhappy without boundaries. Once they know where the limits are, they can play happily. God cannot be unjust... or your're not referencing the Judaic Christian God. Other Gods are corruptions of the idea of God. You're allowed to believe or not... that's your freedom - to be an idiot or follow the rules. It's the same with criminal justice - you can choose to be good or choose to be bad and invoke the possibility of punishment. Only difference is... Gods justice is true and absolute. Man's justice is potentially flawed.

Nah, too much work, and anyways, I think you know full well it's all there.

No, I know it isn't there. Hence the request.

Nah, still too much work to go find quotes and chapter references. I'm content with you pretending that the stuff in the bible isn't there and that I'm making it up.

If you can't back up what you're saying then you should STFU. Respectfully

See the bible says it doesn't matter if your umbrella has holes. you're still forgiven. Pretty nice huh?

No, it's not nice. I did nothing wrong. What is there to forgive? Not only is that not nice, but it's fucking unpleasant. Some god gets all jealous that I partied in my thoughts with my brain fairies, threatens me with eternal torture, and then says he'll forgive me? What the fuck kind of creep would do that? You forgot to mention of course, that in order to get that oh so nice forgiveness, the victim must do some major apologizing/asskissing/agreement-to-start-worshipping, etc. If your god was going to end up forgiving everyone because he's not really such a mean guy as to torture people forever, why would there even be the hell you believe exists? Is hell a metaphor meant to keep us humans in line since we are too stupid to understand common sense instead?

This is a basic truth we're talking about you denying. To that truth, you are choosing rebellion... and then expect no consequences. How dishonest would it be if you were allowed to break the law without consequences? If you understand common sense, you'd have no problem with this.

I don't think disobeying the many silly demands like worship are detrimental. Do you?

I'd say it's usually detrimental to others, but then that's changing the subject : you. It's not so much a demand, and a natural response to give credit where it's due. If a person was all take and no give, I guess you'd consider them poorly. Same applies here... should you be considered favourably or unfavourably?

Please prove how me not worshipping your god is detrimental to others around me. As for giving credit, why? If your god proved to me that he made the universe and is instilling his cruel and unnecessary rules for me to live under, why should I let him know I give him credit for it, is he worried that I will claim it as my own? This is ridiculous. Remember also, that the xtian god does not just want acknowlegement of his feats, he also wants praise for them. Praise. About a cruel and nonsensical reward/punishment system. Come on, really! I'm not good at self delusion, but if I thought hell were real, I'd be scared enough to give it a good try. You bet I would think nice thoughts about him. Maybe I'd even try to masturbate about him! Nah, he's pretty ugly in every pic I've seen. I take that part back!

Do you have some personal problem you want to share? Your rant here is so illogical it's obsessive.

In that you say God is natural. Since your god is not found in nature at all, well, you know...

where are you looking?

"Actual existence" is a question of empirical knowledge. Only an idiot would require empirical knowledge of a non temporal entity. Is that you?

I must be, that is if being an idiot means I think you are completely saying the above as an excuse for having zero zip nadda zilch squat evidence, or even any indicators that any gods exist, much less your particular variation of one who needs one earth species to telepathically reassure him that he is the cat's pajamas.

Well thanks for clearing that up.

[Scented Nectar]

Why wouldn't God have given them perfected rules then? Why give them defective ones? I'm really beginning to doubt this god's skills you know. Why didn't he do it right the first time? And please don't say it was in context for the time. Injustice and cruelty are never ok just because of what year it happens to be. That's insane.

Why do you presume to know what God should do? All of time is already known to God. History unfolds and God acts as and when he chooses... when the time is right.

Oh dear, you said it anyways, even though it is insane. No matter whether your god is torturing people forever for noncrimes, or killing their offspring while they are alive because they are not the correct religion (passover), God is always a swell guy. He must have a good reason. You worship a really sick fucker. In fact you worship him despite admitting you don't know why he does anything. What is it about him you are admiring so much?

Rules in society enable the vast majority to enjoy safety. Children in anarchy are unhappy without boundaries. Once they know where the limits are, they can play happily.

We are not talking about common sense rules. We are talking about moronic, unfair ones where if you don't think nice thoughts about the person threatening you, you will be tortured forever. Seriously, stop pretending we are talking about good rules.

God cannot be unjust... or your're not referencing the Judaic Christian God.

See what you are doing here? Your religion is the only right one, and all others are inferior because they are not just. Not only that, but you are backing a god that has been proven bigtime to be unjust.

Other Gods are corruptions of the idea of God.

Yeah, yeah, yours is the only true way, blah blah.

You're allowed to believe or not... that's your freedom - to be an idiot or follow the rules.

No you're not. If you really had that freedom, there wouldn't be the threat of eternal torture as punishment for making the non-favoured-by-god choice. Also, belief is not a choice, unless you are into self-delusion and successful at it to boot. If god wanted us to believe in him, he'd provide clear unquestionable evidence, especially if the eternal future and happiness of his children were at stake, I mean really!

It's the same with criminal justice - you can choose to be good or choose to be bad and invoke the possibility of punishment. Only difference is... Gods justice is true and absolute. Man's justice is potentially flawed.

If you want to compare the god law system with modern secular criminal justice, god loses bigtime. You don't really want to go there, do you?????

If you can't back up what you're saying then you should STFU. Respectfully

Not when it comes to the many thought crimes of the bible. They are too well known for me to have to prove to you, much less go to the work of searching and collecting them all. It's preferable to me that you instead deny that you believe me. That is less unpleasant than looking up well known shit would be.

This is a basic truth we're talking about you denying. To that truth, you are choosing rebellion... and then expect no consequences. How dishonest would it be if you were allowed to break the law without consequences? If you understand common sense, you'd have no problem with this.

What truth? There is no evidence at all that it is real. And common sense has nothing to do with it, unlike modern secular law. Bible law is unchanging and forever binding, keeping the cruelties forever on the belief that it must be right even though it doesn't feel right, because god wants it that way, and who are we to question perfect god. At least though, it looks like you are admitting that you follow god-law because you are scared of the penalty, not because you necessarily agree with the morals behind the individual laws.

Please prove how me not worshipping your god is detrimental to others around me. As for giving credit, why? If your god proved to me that he made the universe and is instilling his cruel and unnecessary rules for me to live under, why should I let him know I give him credit for it, is he worried that I will claim it as my own? This is ridiculous. Remember also, that the xtian god does not just want acknowlegement of his feats, he also wants praise for them. Praise. About a cruel and nonsensical reward/punishment system. Come on, really! I'm not good at self delusion, but if I thought hell were real, I'd be scared enough to give it a good try. You bet I would think nice thoughts about him. Maybe I'd even try to masturbate about him! Nah, he's pretty ugly in every pic I've seen. I take that part back!

Do you have some personal problem you want to share? Your rant here is so illogical it's obsessive.

You don't get my point? Seriously? The point is how unjust and egotistically insane it would be to command people to think good emotions about you at the threat of torture if they don't. What the fuck?

In that you say God is natural. Since your god is not found in nature at all, well, you know...

where are you looking?

I was responding to your claim that god is natural. If you are trying to hint you can't see natural-god by looking at nature, then you are beyond help. Is that what you are trying to say? Trying to get out of answering the dilemma of a natural god not being found anywhere in nature?

[fr0d0]

Oh dear, you said it anyways, even though it is insane.

Baseless assertion

We are not talking about common sense rules. We are talking about moronic, unfair ones where if you don't think nice thoughts about the person threatening you, you will be tortured forever. Seriously, stop pretending we are talking about good rules.

I've proved to you why these "rules" are not moronic or unfair. You have no argument against that apparently.

God cannot be unjust... or your're not referencing the Judaic Christian God.

See what you are doing here? Your religion is the only right one, and all others are inferior because they are not just. Not only that, but you are backing a god that has been proven bigtime to be unjust.

All theological consideration has merit. I'm open to any ideas, and discriminate against none. the Christian concept happens to be my personal choice and is the subject of my belief. If the concept of a god, as it is with Christian theology, is the embodiment of positivism, then this positivism is self evident. You're summation of an opposite set of values simply can't fit in my scenario. I'm not demeaning other religions at all.

You're allowed to believe or not... that's your freedom - to be an idiot or follow the rules.

No you're not. If you really had that freedom, there wouldn't be the threat of eternal torture as punishment for making the non-favoured-by-god choice. Also, belief is not a choice, unless you are into self-delusion and successful at it to boot. If god wanted us to believe in him, he'd provide clear unquestionable evidence, especially if the eternal future and happiness of his children were at stake, I mean really!

So a person has no freedom to be a criminal by your logic. No freedom to be anything but law abiding.

I certainly don't believe in God out of fear. the threat of eternal punishment and reward mean less than nothing to me. I understand that spiritual life and death affects my life now. And I choose life. I have the complete freedom to choose spiritual death if I wan't to. How that pans out after I'm dead --- I'm sorry... I simply couldn't care less.

How could God giving you no choice to believe in him or not work? The point of Christianity is faith. The point is your complete freedom to choose.

How does your scenario equate to happiness? You're being incredibly egocentric putting human happiness or suffering above the wider interests of the sum of reality.

It's the same with criminal justice - you can choose to be good or choose to be bad and invoke the possibility of punishment. Only difference is... Gods justice is true and absolute. Man's justice is potentially flawed.

If you want to compare the god law system with modern secular criminal justice, god loses bigtime. You don't really want to go there, do you?????

Yep. God is just. God NEVER acts unlawfully. God never murders... only takes life justly. Human justice is seriously and pretty completely flawed in comparison. It's laughable that you think you stand a chance against the concept of goodness versus human achievement towards such. No human endeavour is absolutely perfect. God is absolutely perfect. No contest.

If you can't back up what you're saying then you should STFU. Respectfully

Not when it comes to the many thought crimes of the bible. They are too well known for me to have to prove to you, much less go to the work of searching and collecting them all. It's preferable to me that you instead deny that you believe me. That is less unpleasant than looking up well known shit would be.

You can quote the whole of the skeptics annotated bible if you like. Not one point sticks.

This is a basic truth we're talking about you denying. To that truth, you are choosing rebellion... and then expect no consequences. How dishonest would it be if you were allowed to break the law without consequences? If you understand common sense, you'd have no problem with this.

What truth? There is no evidence at all that it is real. And common sense has nothing to do with it, unlike modern secular law. Bible law is unchanging and forever binding, keeping the cruelties forever on the belief that it must be right even though it doesn't feel right, because god wants it that way, and who are we to question perfect god. At least though, it looks like you are admitting that you follow god-law because you are scared of the penalty, not because you necessarily agree with the morals behind the individual laws.

The truth is the choice between positivity and negativity. You seem to think the choice isn't free. That the inherent negative consequences restrict your freedom to choose negativity. And you think that there's no evidence that this is 'real'? Seems like common sense to me(?)

The morality outlined in the bible is 100% condoned by me. I don't know where you get the idea that I don't agree with it. It does indeed 'feel right' because that's what it is.

I was responding to your claim that god is natural. If you are trying to hint you can't see natural-god by looking at nature, then you are beyond help. Is that what you are trying to say? Trying to get out of answering the dilemma of a natural god not being found anywhere in nature?

I was saying that these are natural laws, and not that God is natural. In my belief, God created this reality, including nature and natural laws. As everything came from God, part of him is in everything... this is just logic. The basic, root concept of God is creator and positive force. Your view of god being the opposite is unsupportable logically and falls flat as soon as you consider it. You don't have to believe in God, and that can be a logically sound position. To try to put it down with such illogic as your espousing is detrimental to your stance on religion.

[Scented Nectar]

Oh dear, you said it anyways, even though it is insane.

Baseless assertion

No. The basis is that it is clearly an insane word game. You can say anything at all, completely making it up, and then say 'see, it's really a metaphor for a metaphor for a metaphor for a....' Cuckoo. Loonytunes. Bring out the funny jacket and soft walls time.

We are not talking about common sense rules. We are talking about moronic, unfair ones where if you don't think nice thoughts about the person threatening you, you will be tortured forever. Seriously, stop pretending we are talking about good rules.

I've proved to you why these "rules" are not moronic or unfair. You have no argument against that apparently.

You've proved no such thing. It would be impossible to prove such unecessary cruelty as being fair. If you really think something you wrote convinced me, what was it?

God cannot be unjust... or your're not referencing the Judaic Christian God.

See what you are doing here? Your religion is the only right one, and all others are inferior because they are not just. Not only that, but you are backing a god that has been proven bigtime to be unjust.

All theological consideration has merit. I'm open to any ideas, and discriminate against none. the Christian concept happens to be my personal choice and is the subject of my belief. If the concept of a god, as it is with Christian theology, is the embodiment of positivism, then this positivism is self evident. You're summation of an opposite set of values simply can't fit in my scenario. I'm not demeaning other religions at all.

You are claiming that your god is always just, and that any unjust god must be some other religion's god. Why are you living in such a free godless society? You should move to a muslim country, as they are currently the best ones at enforcing the nice rules of the Abrahamic god you like so much in their theocratically run countries. As close to biblegod's word as you will find nowadays and it's the same god anyways.

So a person has no freedom to be a criminal by your logic. No freedom to be anything but law abiding.

Not according to your god. When one choice carries a punishment and the other reward, it takes away from pure choice. It influences the decision to favour choosing the one associated with the reward and avoidance of the punishment, instead of being based on the original choice itself. This is not rocket science. Hey, you are free NOT to give me your wallet when I point a gun at you, and if you are smart you probably will give me the wallet. Doesn't make you a criminal though if you say no, run away and I shoot you anyways. I am still the criminal for making you have to have this horrible 'choice'. And you would be quite right to think poorly of my morals for doing this unfair thing to you. Or not, after all, you are accepting that if biblegod diddit, his morals are good, very good.

I certainly don't believe in God out of fear. the threat of eternal punishment and reward mean less than nothing to me.

Then you are in it for the much worse reason of actually liking the main character in the bible. Iccck. You probably shouldn't admit that to too many people. You won't be allowed near disobedient children or in restaurants where people wear multi-fabrics.

I understand that spiritual life and death affects my life now. And I choose life. I have the complete freedom to choose spiritual death if I wan't to. How that pans out after I'm dead --- I'm sorry... I simply couldn't care less.

You should care if you are really a christian. The whole point of your religion is to live in a manner to avoid eternal hellfire and to earn God's loving reward of heaven and his holy company for eternity. Otherwise, what are you sucking up for?

How could God giving you no choice to believe in him or not work? The point of Christianity is faith. The point is your complete freedom to choose.

No. If that were the case, there wouldn't be such a lack of evidence of gods, and such a huge amount of evidence against any and all specific ones, since these things make the choice hugely unfair in favour of the not believing side. It makes it unfair because the human brain will often see the logic and plausibility of things instead of choosing to believe something on faith and in the face of such implausibility it would be stupid to conclude anything other than your magical invisible creator deity who wants humans to behave differently than how he made them to behave is not real. You have to make an effort to convince yourself of something your natural common sense and all the evidence says is a ridiculous concept to consider more than a passing thought of drunken moment's pondering on life. Like my marijuana inspired flower fairies, you know? I'm not about to make an effort to convince myself such a silly thing must be true despite everything pointing against it. I made up the silly concept in giggle moment. And you know what? It has every bit as much credibility as your god, even more since plant and multi-god/spirit worship predated your monotheistic version of the supernatural.

How does your scenario equate to happiness? You're being incredibly egocentric putting human happiness or suffering above the wider interests of the sum of reality.

Yeah, how dare I put the real life happiness and welfare of my fellow humans before the emotional need for telepathic reassurance of a magical creature I've never seen or even met because he might get mad if I don't.

Yep. God is just. God NEVER acts unlawfully. God never murders... only takes life justly. Human justice is seriously and pretty completely flawed in comparison. It's laughable that you think you stand a chance against the concept of goodness versus human achievement towards such. No human endeavour is absolutely perfect. God is absolutely perfect. No contest.

Wow!!!!! You are a scary person. I hope you've truly convinced yourself of all that so your god doesn't punish you. If he knows that you don't really approve of his morals and are just trying to trick both yourself and him, he'll send you to hell anyways. No, don't worry. Hell's not real.

The truth is the choice between positivity and negativity. You seem to think the choice isn't free. That the inherent negative consequences restrict your freedom to choose negativity. And you think that there's no evidence that this is 'real'? Seems like common sense to me(?)

Your common sense is nothing more than a what-if-it's-true fear. Anyways, your god would not torture you for letting yourself experience the very natural negative thoughts we all have, would he? If such thoughts offended him that much, he wouldn't have created them in us, much less punish us for having what he gave us. Unless your god is a sociopathic lunatic. Is he?

The morality outlined in the bible is 100% condoned by me. I don't know where you get the idea that I don't agree with it. It does indeed 'feel right' because that's what it is.

So, if there were no legal penalties against enforcing the following, can I assume you would jump at the chance to kill me for choosing to have sex outside of the 'marriage' I am sold into as a child, killed again for any bisexual adventures I may have had, and killed again for doing something you consider work on your sabbath, and killed again for wearing both cotton and hemp at the same time? I don't think you'd be my first choice of what internet friends I'd like to meet in real life. You want to kill most of the people in the world. I hope you are being kept away from dangerous machinery and bomb materials. After all, even with the modern secular rules to somewhat protect me from criminals like you, you probably think following your godlaws takes priority over the human ones.

I was saying that these are natural laws, and not that God is natural.

Word games again. It is but it isn't.

In my belief, God created this reality, including nature and natural laws. As everything came from God, part of him is in everything... this is just logic.

No, it's your faith. Stop calling it logic. Faith is the opposite of using logic to come to your decisions. Stop pretending to be using logic.

The basic, root concept of God is creator and positive force. Your view of god being the opposite is unsupportable logically and falls flat as soon as you consider it.

Then how come you can't prove this claim or even outline the logic you say you are using?

You don't have to believe in God, and that can be a logically sound position. To try to put it down with such illogic as your espousing is detrimental to your stance on religion.

No, it's detrimental to your stance on religion. Logically derived conclusions never go against my religious beliefs because I don't have any religious beliefs. There is nothing I believe on faith alone, so there are no faith beliefs there to debunk with logic. Also, note that if you were to actually prove any religious/supernatural claim at all, it would no longer require faith to believe it, but would use logic/evidence from then on for its belief.

[Watson]

No, the metaphor would be the fictional representation of the nonfictional element.

Which is what the Bible puts forward. A fictional representation of a nonfictional being and it's attributes and teachings.

If the lessons of nonharmful behaviour being deserving of death at the hands of followers, and other equally horrible lessons are real, then the bible should be considered hate literature.

This is not the message of God, and only parts of the Bible propogate it as such. These parts of the Bible are wrong.

God is being presented as a nonfictional element rather than a metaphor if it explains how he works.

Yeah...exactly?

So these horrible lessons can't be metaphors for yet something else.

The lessons are the underlying metaphor. And said lessons are the teachings of God, represented as accurately as possible by man.

If readers can relate to it, then there would be no argument, no debate, no questioning even, as to exactly what the bible is saying humans should do, and what is real vs metaphor and if the latter what's it mean, and the many contradictions, etc.

Wrong. It is human nature to interpret and misinterpret, because perception is what each man, woman, child, or what-have-you makes of it.

Here's an example:
The popular science fiction writer, Ray Bradbury, is the author of the book Fahrenheit 451 and has spent a lot of time giving lectures on it. The book is about a distant future where books are burned and censored to all hell. It was written in the 1950s. The metaphor is of this societies degrading moral value and of the censorship running rampant within America. Lo and behold, a lot of the things within the book came true 50 years later.

But more to the point, Ray once gave a lecture on this book to a class, and they tried to tell him what it was all about. Obviously, as the author, he knew exactly what he had intended and he told them that they were wrong. They actually continued with their arguments and tried to tell him what his book was about.

This is a display and example of how humans persist in their deluded misinterpretations of any sort of literature, regardless of the actual author's intent. So you can point fingers and say "It should be crystal clear!" all you want, but unfortunately do to mankind and his nature, it is not. We are the ones who make it as such, and it is up to the rest of the world to correct the mistakes and set things right.

If mere mortal sinful humans have fucked up the holy word of god so bad that the bible is now unclear, why on earth are you following it at all?

The message is not unclear if you have already observed it's truth in the real world. I am not following the Bible, I am following God; it just so happens that the source I most often refer to in regards to a fixed reference for God's nature is the Bible.

Find your own answers, not ones from a messed up, inaccurate, often-made-up, uneducated source with a hidden political/financial theocratically-founded agenda like the Abrahamic religions.

I have. And in doing so, I have also seen the truth that lies within the Abrahamic religions. I have also been exposed to the truth that lies within other religions, too.

The world has unfortunately seen, and continues to see the result of humans applying the 'facts' of the bible to real life. Not a good track record, I'm afraid.

Did you completely ignore my statements about backwards application? The process goes like this; apply real life observations to the Bible-->Bible makes more sense-->apply the Bible to real life.

The Bible itself is not a necessity, it is simply there for those who truly have found belief to have a fixed reference when attempting to understand God. We don't need it, but it helps every now and then.

What lessons? Really, what? Specifically. And exclusive to the bible please, eg, almost every religion and nonreligious philosophy has some variation of the don't do to others empathy rule.

Exactly my point. Why do the lessons I've learned have to be exclusive to the Bible? They can be learned merely by walking the path of life and observing the way it works around you. The do to others empathy rule is a prime example of this. It works. It can be applied to real life. The Bible is documenting that, not setting out to invent that rule.

I'm very interested to know the lessons only the bible can provide.

Again, that's the point; not only the Bible can provide these lessons, a simple observation of man and the way he works, and life and the way it happens can provide these lessons. The Bible is merely a record of those observations from those men who wished to write about God in their time.

Also, I hope you don't just say something like, well it's different for everyone.

Don't worry, I wont.

Uh uh, we are not talking about a self help book here,

Yes, in a way actually, we are.

we are talking about a set of laws and commands, to be enforced on everyone, believers/nonbelievers alike to affect us our whole lives. And for you believers, you think it will also affect you after you die and forever.

No, we are not talking about a set of laws or commands to be enforced. We are talking about a set of observations on human nature and the laws that apply there. For example, the scientific law of gravity is recorded as being true in science text books everywhere, because we can observe gravity and we know it applies to everyone and everything. Similarly, the Bible is a reference for the laws of human nature and God, and their effects on man as he walks about through his life and encounters certain scenarios.

Ok, then when referring to the bible, who are the lizards and who are the commies?

The literal stories are the lizards, the lessons learned from them are the commies.

If the bible had an important message, it wouldn't play around with metaphors.

Again, yes it would, because it is much easier to represent an almost incomprehensible being, God, and an individual's experience with Him to someone who doesn't already understand or wasn't there when the experience was had, through metaphorical stories instead.

And in fact it didn't.

Yes, it did.

The writers meant for it to be taken quite seriously and factually.

The existence of God and His effects on the world, sure. Just like the writers of a scientific text book, when writing about gravity, use made up stories to demonstrate how gravity works.

You only want it to be metaphorical because you are trying to make it fit into your own personal life and morals and stuff.

No, I want it to be metaphorical, because it clearly is metaphorical.

No you haven't. You have observed real life and chalked it up to one version (xtian) of one specific supernatural cause (invisible creator deities) out of the zillions of supernatural causes that the human brain can make up and wonder about.

Where did I claim that the Christian God is the one true God? If you've ever read any of my posts here, you know that I've stated multiple times that I believe all religions to be a attempt at describing the same phenomenon. I choose Christianity as my default because I find it to be the best and most far-reaching descriptor of the phenomenon known as life/ God.

]If it's a metaphor, how do you know it's accurate?

Because it matches my observations of the real world.

And what particular metaphorical depiction(s) of God are you referring to? An example here would be nice.

I'll quote fr0do from a completely different topic here:

God is one. (Deut. 6:4, Romans 3:30, Galatians 3:20, James 2:19)
God is holy. (Psalm 99:9)
God is spirit. (John 4:24)
God is light. (1 John 1:5)
God is love. (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)

So, how did they know anything about God?

Because they had observed Him already in their daily lives, and did their best to record the lessons and experiences they had had in a way that others would understand. Once more, I go back to the gravity example on this one. You wouldn't write in a science text book "One time, I was on my way to work, and I saw an apple fall off of a tree" as proof of gravity or as a demonstration of how gravity works.

It's even worse if the metaphors were made up by mere humans, since the very message is whatever the fuck they were thinking at the time.

The stories themselves were completely made up; the truth they allude to, though alluding to it metaphorically, is still true/real.

Your understanding doesn't count.

Why not? Especially if my understanding is based on observations of real life and the world around me, rather than any preconceptions I have formed about the world?

You can say that to excuse anything immoral or magical in that book.

Replace the word 'excuse' with 'explain', and you've got what I'm attempting to do.

Let's go by what it actually says.

I am. You are not.

If you agree with biblegod's morals and laws to follow on earth, then you are a threat to my life and well being and basic freedom.

If I am taking it literally.

It's a hideous book.

If taken literally.

The accidental time period one is born into, is no justification for that group to deserve suffering.

No, it is not. That is why I have said numerous times that the Bible is not completely accurate. For some reason, you can't seem to understand this. You're still arguing with a fundamentalist, when I certainly am not one. Are you incapable of comprehending new arguments or ideas, and dealing with them accordingly? I can't understand for the life of me why.

Anyways, even your Jesus said something about not abolishing these old laws, but to do the opposite and 'fulfill' them, make them happen, enforce them. Even gave shit to someone for not killing their disobedient children somewhere in there.

LOL @ 'your Jesus.'

Yes, that is true, that is written in the Bible. I've not read that particular part, so I'm taking your word for it here. And I also trust you have complete knowledge and understanding of the context and meaning within which all this was said? Or the context within which it was written?

Let's put it this way; you wouldn't expect a republican publication to glorify democratic values and decry republican ones, would you? Better yet, you wouldn't expect a book written during the time of slavery to understand completely why slavery is wrong, would you?

No, it goes further back than the monotheistic Abrahamic god.

Of this I am aware.

There is a theory that the Adam and Eve story represented the judeochristian takeover of the previous gnostic and other religions, Eve representing goddess worship common in many of them, and the forbidden tree of life representing the political control over possible earlier shamanic use of cannabis (the jews restricted the oil-anointing and smoke-inhaling of 'cannabosm' to priests and kings they approved of, and the xtians later stopping it altogether), etc. It's plausible as a theory for how the religious misogyny of the last few thousand years or so came about.

I seriously don't understand what this has to do with anything at all. Seriously.

But even that all goes back further. Xtianity doesn't have it's own starting point.

Except, you know, Christ.

Holidays and many concepts were taken and adapted from various other pre-existing religions. And who knows what speculative deity concepts they came from in earlier times.

Just going to show that all religions are somewhat convergent in ideals and observations. The divergent points come usualy when human politics get involved.

There is no need to add a god-filter to the world. No need at all.

I am not 'adding a god-filter' to the world. I am observing the world through belief and faith- in myself, in others, and in thsi world around me- and finding the evidence of God all around me in doing so. I am adding belief to the world, and finding that it has accurate and beneficial results.

And what are some of the many, many indications to you that God exists? Seriously, what? And don't be vague.

Remember how we talked about how you wouldn't use "I was on my way to work one time and an apple fell down" as proof of gravity? Similarly, I cannot use any of my subjective experieces to prove to your subjectivity that God exists. Unless you had been there, you didn't 'see the apple fall', so to speak.

One example, however, would be that I have found indication of what love is and experienced it's existence, and have discovered it to be coinsiding with what God is meant to be as well. Remember:

God is love. (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)

Even mere mortal rock stars lose respect for fans who worship and adore ad nauseum. Why would your god even like you doing that to him. It is creepy in a stalker sort of way.

This is a ridiculous argument. You don't understand God, as I've said a hundred ka-jillion times by now, so you also don't understand off-shoots of God, such as what it means to 'worship' God.

God is all of life. God is everything. To 'worship' and love God is to love and adore and bask in all of life's grace as best as one can.

What are the good morals in the bible?

Read it yourself. I'm not spoon feeding you, here.

And where in the bible does it say there is a hidden true meaning and that you will find it by applying your personal experiences/observations to it?

Simple common sense dictates that there is a true meaning behind the Bible and that you will find it by applying real life observances/experiences to it.

If you didn't know what communists even were, would you know and understand what the book about lizards was referencing?

Then you can't not believe that the christian bible is true.

I believe the Bible is true, to a point. You are confusing the words 'true' and 'literal' with each other.

You are cherry picking the bible, and adding hidden meanings that you like, and all kinds of excuses to deny that fact that you are not really a christian.

I live my life in a Christ-like manner, therefore, I am a Christian. With all due respect, shut up. You have shown an immense lack of understanding, and inability to cope with, the theology behind the Christian Bible. You can say I 'cherry-pick' it all you like; doing so does not make me any less of a Christian, because I am simply recognizing the falliability of man and the fact that anything he writes is inherrantly falliable, as well. You don't read a book and agree with every single thing the author has to say within it, do you? Exactly.

Furthermore, do you define a patriot as any less than a patriot if he criticizes his government? No, I would think that he is more of a patriot, because he is trying to get something done and change where he finds fault with the current government.

Shit. Jesus Christ Himself is depicted within the Bible as critical of the church!

You are obviously a deist, but you don't believe the bible to be true or accurate, even though you like its morals.

I believe in the lessos taught and the observations made within the Bible.

You claim the supernatural/illogical parts are metaphors, etc so you are not a believer in it, are you? Is Jesus's resurrection a metaphor?

I believe in the message behind Jesus Christ, behind His ressurection, and behind the lessons taught within the Bible. You are confusing 'believe' with 'knowing.'

Who cares about who understands it or not. Real life suffering results (and for believers, eternity as well). That book should at least come with a disclaimer, do not do this in real life. We don't really mean it for real when we say to kill or rule over these or those people.

And again; you would not call someone during the time of slavery out for writing a book about slavery, would you? You wouldn't write a review about that book decrying it's advocation of slavery, would you? You would just acknowledge that that book is out-dated morally, and move on.

No it doesn't. That was to include other additional possible reasons that people might believe in hell, such as those with self-worthiness issues who feel they deserve punishment for some reason and figure there must be one waiting for them, etc.

And what I am saying is that you do not understand the metaphor or message behind 'Hell', so you cannot be expected to understand it's tenants or how one gets there.

I have found Hell to be very real, by the way. I have lived it, and it is quite terrible. But again, you still have no understanding of what Hell or Heaven truly are, so it is quite impossible to discuss them with you until you do.

You have not lived the christian hell.

[/quote]
You do not understand the Christian Hell. You show an enormous misunderstanding, already, of the messages behind the Bible and it's meanings. How do you, an Atheist, know for certain what the Christian Hell is? Understanding what the Christian Hell is requires an understanding of Christianity, which you have shown you do not possess.

You are not even dead yet.

The Bible is all about spirituality, and the lessons one learns throughout life that can be applied to spiritual health, spiritual wellness, and spiritual discipline. To be in Hell, one does not have to physically die; spiritual death can have the same effect, as well. This is what I have experienced. Spiritual death. It is not pleasant.

You don't get to call real life bad times, which everyone gets no matter what one's belief in dities, the christian hell.
Hell in the xtian bible happens after death,

After spiritual death.

and whether you are sent there is determined by what God thinks of what you did and thought while you were alive on Earth. No making shit up, or you are not really a christian.

God is a part of all things. Even you, and even me. That's what one's soul is, the part of the human being most connected to God. This is a Christian belief. This is why, when you do bad things, you feel bad; your soul, the part of you that is most in-tune with God, is punishing you because it knows better than you do what is right and wrong. You have the final say in what your own punishment is, because your soul is in tune with God and knows what is bad or good. When you do good, your soul makes you feel good; when you do bad, your soul makes you feel bad.

Well, the definition of being a Christian is to be Christ-like. That is why it is calld Christianity. So, yes, anyone not acting Christ-like is not a real Christian in the simplest sense of the word.

The only rulebook on how to be christ-like is the christian bible. So, lather rinse repeat.

Not exactly. Being Christ-like means being Christ-like; anyone living on this Earth can discover that leading a Christ-like life is beneficial to one's state of mind, body, and spirit. The Bible is simply a record of that observation.

The Bible is all about the intent. Most books are. Some parts of the Bible are written with the intent of being honest, sincere observations about human nature as it relates to God, the ways in which God works, and God's attributes. Other parts, because of the falliability of man, are written with political control in mind. Man is always looking for ways of controlling other men. Unfortunately, religion is just another of many ways he can do this.

[Scented Nectar]

If the lessons of nonharmful behaviour being deserving of death at the hands of followers, and other equally horrible lessons are real, then the bible should be considered hate literature.

This is not the message of God, and only parts of the Bible propogate it as such. These parts of the Bible are wrong.

Then everything but all the 'begats' has to go, and even those are pretty suspect since people just did not live to 900 years old or whatever back then.

The lessons are the underlying metaphor. And said lessons are the teachings of God, represented as accurately as possible by man.

You have no way of knowing that God is not a metaphor (like for evil and abuse of authority) and so therefore the teachings are metaphors too, like maybe for evil and cruel laws we should watch out for. How about that interpretation? You can't prove otherwise. God is a metaphor for evil that will trick you and tell you it's good.

The message is not unclear if you have already observed it's truth in the real world. I am not following the Bible, I am following God; it just so happens that the source I most often refer to in regards to a fixed reference for God's nature is the Bible.

If the bible is a fixed reference to you, then you ARE following the bible, and therefore the bible's version of what god is.

Did you completely ignore my statements about backwards application? The process goes like this; apply real life observations to the Bible-->Bible makes more sense-->apply the Bible to real life.

Lots of deaths and misery have resulted from people doing just that with your biblebook.

The Bible itself is not a necessity, it is simply there for those who truly have found belief to have a fixed reference when attempting to understand God. We don't need it, but it helps every now and then.

I'm glad you have no 'need' for it, in the food and water sense, because I think the book should be mega-mocked, stuck on a pole and displayed in the town square, and certainly not used for guidance. Too much very real harm has been done because of it, and for much too long.

What lessons? Really, what? Specifically. And exclusive to the bible please, eg, almost every religion and nonreligious philosophy has some variation of the don't do to others empathy rule.

Exactly my point. Why do the lessons I've learned have to be exclusive to the Bible? They can be learned merely by walking the path of life and observing the way it works around you. The do to others empathy rule is a prime example of this. It works. It can be applied to real life. The Bible is documenting that, not setting out to invent that rule.

Yeah, yeah, that's nice, so, um, about those lessons, what lessons specifically has the bible taught you? You are claiming to be a christian, so it's the book you hold above the others I'm talking about. It doesn't matter that some of the other religions and philosophies out there share some of the ideas/lessons with you. And I am hoping that those lessons you learned outweigh the horrible crimes committed in the name of that same book which has helped you so much, but even if they don't, I am curious as to what they are, preferable in the order of their importance to you.

Also, I hope you don't just say something like, well it's different for everyone.

Don't worry, I wont.

But you are if all the lessons are individual and not clearly the same for everyone.

Uh uh, we are not talking about a self help book here,

Yes, in a way actually, we are.

Then in that case, I expect it to do more help than harm, at the very least a neutral no-effect. The writings of the abrahamic god followers (of which the xtian bible is a part of) have caused serious fucking damage, and are continuing to do so, bigtime!

No, we are not talking about a set of laws or commands to be enforced. We are talking about a set of observations on human nature and the laws that apply there. For example, the scientific law of gravity is recorded as being true in science text books everywhere, because we can observe gravity and we know it applies to everyone and everything. Similarly, the Bible is a reference for the laws of human nature and God, and their effects on man as he walks about through his life and encounters certain scenarios.

I'll consider accepting your claim if you first prove to me that we can observe your god's effects on humans, which of course must also show that the god you claim as the causative element actually exists and is causing that effect. And I'm not talking about the psychological effects of having the concept or belief in a god, but the actual effects of a god itself. Then I will want to know why I should believe that this god is the same one the abrahamic religions refer to, and then I will consider it similar to how I consider documents that refer to gravity.

The writers meant for it to be taken quite seriously and factually.

The existence of God and His effects on the world, sure. Just like the writers of a scientific text book, when writing about gravity, use made up stories to demonstrate how gravity works.

No, you don't get to decide that for everyone. The bible does NOT say the god parts and effect descriptions are true, but the rest is not. And science books don't tend to use made up stories, unless of course it is prefaced by something like, 'the following fictional example is used here to display how such a resulting reaction of object weight on various shelf materials in relation to gravity's effects, and how they might take place in a household environment', etc.

You only want it to be metaphorical because you are trying to make it fit into your own personal life and morals and stuff.

No, I want it to be metaphorical, because it clearly is metaphorical.

Ok, fine, but I still can't take your word on it, and I still want to see where the bible makes that clear to me, not you. If it's a holy book, it should at least be clear about what it's messages and facts/metaphors are.

And what particular metaphorical depiction(s) of God are you referring to? An example here would be nice.

I'll quote fr0do from a completely different topic here:

God is one. (Deut. 6:4, Romans 3:30, Galatians 3:20, James 2:19)
God is holy. (Psalm 99:9)
God is spirit. (John 4:24)
God is light. (1 John 1:5)
God is love. (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)

Hmm, all this time I thought one was just another number, love an emotion, and light a physics thing that I don't quite understand due to never having studied it much. Hang on a minute, I have to go turn on the God because it's kind of dark in here, and by the way, I just Goood that new painting you have on the wall, who made it? Teacher, the answer to 7x3 is twentyGod. Yikes, I think for the sake of debating about religions, I will stick to the part where God is a superbeing who created everything, is all loving, and omnipotent, and wants humans to do certain unecessary things such as think thoughts of praise about him, and wants them to do other things too, like help him fight the evil devil he created.

Because they had observed Him already in their daily lives, and did their best to record the lessons and experiences they had had in a way that others would understand. Once more, I go back to the gravity example on this one. You wouldn't write in a science text book "One time, I was on my way to work, and I saw an apple fall off of a tree" as proof of gravity or as a demonstration of how gravity works.

I'm not a scientist, but a science book would more likely have something like: Here at the Research Lab where the author of this report works, we observed that 100% of the apples in our samples (100,000 subject apple trees with an average of 150 apples each) fell at the moment they were no longer supported by the tree branch. This was observed by a team of 10 researchers, recorded on video as well as stop-motion still photography, and the floor onto which the apples fell had a scale which recorded the weight difference when they landed. Air friction slowdown was seen and recorded, in relation to the apples' individual sizes and shapes aligning completely without deviation to the mathematics of such friction, blah blah.

Let's go by what it actually says.

I am. You are not.

You've already admitted that you put it through your personal interpretation of what you think are metaphors and what they represent. I will stick to the pre-additional-filter stuff that the actual book itself says.

If you agree with biblegod's morals and laws to follow on earth, then you are a threat to my life and well being and basic freedom.

If I am taking it literally.

Even if you don't, the lessons to be evil to others is still there, the vengence, the justified persecutions, the slaughter, the slavery, etc.

Anyways, even your Jesus said something about not abolishing these old laws, but to do the opposite and 'fulfill' them, make them happen, enforce them. Even gave shit to someone for not killing their disobedient children somewhere in there.

Yes, that is true, that is written in the Bible. I've not read that particular part, so I'm taking your word for it here. And I also trust you have complete knowledge and understanding of the context and meaning within which all this was said? Or the context within which it was written?

Can you think of ANY context where killing disobedient children should be the rule? WTF?????

Better yet, you wouldn't expect a book written during the time of slavery to understand completely why slavery is wrong, would you?

I would if that book were claiming to be the path to happiness, goodness, and truth and change for the better, etc.

No, it goes further back than the monotheistic Abrahamic god.

Of this I am aware.

Then why do you worship a monotheistic god, instead of the original worship of many gods, or even the worship of things other than gods, like ancestors, animals spirits, etc.?

There is a theory that the Adam and Eve story represented the judeochristian takeover of the previous gnostic and other religions, Eve representing goddess worship common in many of them, and the forbidden tree of life representing the political control over possible earlier shamanic use of cannabis (the jews restricted the oil-anointing and smoke-inhaling of 'cannabosm' to priests and kings they approved of, and the xtians later stopping it altogether), etc. It's plausible as a theory for how the religious misogyny of the last few thousand years or so came about.

I seriously don't understand what this has to do with anything at all. Seriously.

For one thing, it shows that maybe the lizard tale wasn't about commies at all, but maybe about something completely different, and your head made it fit to what you wanted it to be. To you, the Adam and Eve story probably represents the battle against sin, but maybe it just represents one religion taking power from another religion and telling their followers that the old religion's gods were evil through a story. Just one of many many interpretations, and of course that means many or most will not have the commies as being the metaphor's meaning in their lizard story.

But even that all goes back further. Xtianity doesn't have it's own starting point.

Except, you know, Christ.

Then, you are claiming that some guy named Jesus Christ was really God. In other words, here you are taking the bible literally. The prediction of a coming messiah happened long before the xtian branching off 2000 years ago. The church found it politically and financially profitable to claim that it was really happening and that they are the right religion to follow. The details on whether a faked death/resurrection occurred, or whether it was completely just written fictually about a hundred years later are sketchy, but either way, it was very beneficial to the church's agenda of being the next theocracy. It worked too!

There is no need to add a god-filter to the world. No need at all.

I am not 'adding a god-filter' to the world. I am observing the world through belief and faith- in myself, in others, and in thsi world around me- and finding the evidence of God all around me in doing so. I am adding belief to the world, and finding that it has accurate and beneficial results.

Ok, so.... where is that evidence? What was shown to be accurate and how. Why would you need faith in observing anything? Doesn't that skew the results in favour of your predetermined faithbelief?

One example, however, would be that I have found indication of what love is and experienced it's existence, and have discovered it to be coinsiding with what God is meant to be as well. Remember:

God is love. (1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)

All that tells me is that you experienced love, not that an invisible universe creator exists.

God is all of life. God is everything. To 'worship' and love God is to love and adore and bask in all of life's grace as best as one can.

Nonsense, I bask and whatever in life without any need for a god or gods, so why would a person need an invisible friend to enjoy life to their best?

What are the good morals in the bible?

Read it yourself. I'm not spoon feeding you, here.

You're going to have to. I look and look, but can't find anything but shit in that book. Even the heroes who are portrayed as being really good and admirable (and the only ones considered worthy of saving by god) are awful people, like the sexual exploiters of their own children, Lot and Noah. Since you probably haven't actually read the bible, let me fill you in. To protect some visiting strangers to town, Lot offered up his virgin daughters to be raped by the male townfolk, and Noah got drunk and had sex with his own son.

And where in the bible does it say there is a hidden true meaning and that you will find it by applying your personal experiences/observations to it?

Simple common sense dictates that there is a true meaning behind the Bible and that you will find it by applying real life observances/experiences to it.

Explain this common sense please. I'm not seeing it. Maybe your god made me stupid, in which case would you be charitable please and explain this common sense to me, displaying clearly the hidden meaning?

Shit. Jesus Christ Himself is depicted within the Bible as critical of the church!

He was depicted as being slightly critical of the church that the new christ version was trying to take over from. The newer one kept most of the older one's dogmas to use as their own.

You claim the supernatural/illogical parts are metaphors, etc so you are not a believer in it, are you? Is Jesus's resurrection a metaphor?

I believe in the message behind Jesus Christ, behind His ressurection, and behind the lessons taught within the Bible. You are confusing 'believe' with 'knowing.'

I like the sentiment behind Hindu reluctance to hurt animals, but it does not make me a believer in their goddesses and gods. I would not call myself a Hindu.

And again; you would not call someone during the time of slavery out for writing a book about slavery, would you? You wouldn't write a review about that book decrying it's advocation of slavery, would you? You would just acknowledge that that book is out-dated morally, and move on.

Sounds good, I agree. Let's dump the bible and move on. It's 2010 people.

You do not understand the Christian Hell. You show an enormous misunderstanding, already, of the messages behind the Bible and it's meanings. How do you, an Atheist, know for certain what the Christian Hell is? Understanding what the Christian Hell is requires an understanding of Christianity, which you have shown you do not possess.

Just because you call yourself a christian, does not mean you get to make up stuff about what their rulebook says. Hell happens after physical death and god-judgement if that judgement is not in your favour. It is eternal and it is all agony.

The Bible is all about spirituality, and the lessons one learns throughout life that can be applied to spiritual health, spiritual wellness, and spiritual discipline. To be in Hell, one does not have to physically die; spiritual death can have the same effect, as well. This is what I have experienced. Spiritual death. It is not pleasant.

Oh you poor sufferer. The bible says nothing about meaning spiritual 'death' whatever the fuck that is, I mean what has 'died' exactly? But anyways, your personal spiritual self growth traumas aside, the bible teaches that the after death&judgement hell is real, not just symbolic of your earthtime sadnesses.

You don't get to call real life bad times, which everyone gets no matter what one's belief in dities, the christian hell. Hell in the xtian bible happens after death,

After spiritual death.

Where does it say that?

and whether you are sent there is determined by what God thinks of what you did and thought while you were alive on Earth. No making shit up, or you are not really a christian.

God is a part of all things. Even you, and even me. That's what one's soul is, the part of the human being most connected to God. This is a Christian belief. This is why, when you do bad things, you feel bad; your soul, the part of you that is most in-tune with God, is punishing you because it knows better than you do what is right and wrong. You have the final say in what your own punishment is, because your soul is in tune with God and knows what is bad or good. When you do good, your soul makes you feel good; when you do bad, your soul makes you feel bad.

You are still making shit up. When you feel bad about something, you will simply feel bad until the situation is either fixed or far enough in the past that it no longer affects you. Has nothing to do with gods and souls and being punished for not knowing right and wrong. Thinking it's about gods and souls means that you will not get around to figuring out the real reasons you are feeling bad.

[tackattack]

[Violet]

I think I've just witnessed the largest posts on the forum... hock:

[Watson]

Yeah, my responses are going to end up long as hell, too...I think I'm going to have to go through and add the hide tag onto them once I respond(later today). XD

[Watson]