Debunking the "Dying and Rising Gods" Theory

[Lemonvariable72]

Dude Dionysus predates Christianity by Atleast 800 years with his earliest appearance in the illiad and the Odyssey.

Yes, indeed. And I advise every one of you to read those stories yourselves and not take anyone's word for what these stories purportedly say. Iliad is mainly about the Trojan War (primarily Achilles vs. Hector), and the Odyssey is about the adventures of Odysseus on his way back from Troy. Beautiful stories. Other Greek mythology stories are fun to read as well.

I'm familiar with both stories. I was simply pointingnout that is the first appearance of Dionysus and that it predates Jesus.

[houseofcantor]

When a prominent member of a cult states, and I paraphrase, "meet the new gods, same as the old gods," it's time to look for agenda.

I'm not surprised that the Lord would prepare the pagan world for His Advent by foreshadowing His arrival.

With potential competition? More of those "mysterious ways," I suppose.

[houseofcantor]

Can't help but think that the only prophets of the new testament were the Greeks, as to say the name of the savior in the modern context is essentially saying "Hail Zeus."

“But those who hand down the myths which the poets have made, adduce no proof to the youths who learn them; and we proceed to demonstrate that they have been uttered by the influence of the wicked demons, to deceive and lead astray the human race. For having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come, and that the ungodly among men were to be punished by fire, they put forward many to be called sons of Jupiter, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things which were said with regard to Christ were mere marvelous tales, like the things which were said by the poets.”

Justin Martyr, First Apology

What kind of asshole still believes in "wicked demons" in the 21st century?  Oh, yeah...Randy and fucking pope frank.  Two schmucks.

So this knowing god knowingly gives "wicked demons" the advantage of the bias of first information? Potency continues to look less than omni.

[brewer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ngc3_Pqnz_U

[Randy Carson]

Who says they did?  That's right..nobody.  If the -christians-....not jews...-christians- copied a narrative, either intentionally or unintentionally...as we -very commonly do- it would have been those narratives common to the Med and ANE.

Jews did -and still do- think you christians are full of shit.  Realize this.  It never caught on with them.

It obviously did with a fair number of them early on.

And then Christianity - not Judaism - caught on with a massive portion of the rest of the world.

But there was no pagan prototype.

Jesus is unique.

[The Grand Nudger]

Christianity was a religion of gentiles, Randy.  Jews didn't buy it, they knew the book. Pagans figured "that sounds about like my gods...might be legit/I hate it". That's the thing about pagans though...that I respect. They allow for a plurality of divinity, generally within a certain range of cultural or conjectural boundaries, of course.

I can appreciate and understand your enjoyment of the character. Many feel that way about their favorite narrative characters. I think that Aaron is unique (no, not that Aaron....Titus A.).

[Iroscato]

Yeah, repeating the assertion that your particular messianic figure is any more important/unique than all the others doesn't make it any less horseshit, Randus. The evidence has been presented to you in this thread. You have disregarded it, because your brain is not built to accept evidence that contradicts your sad, narrow little view of the universe.

Same shit, different day. And the cycle carries on.

[Randy Carson]

Randy, there’s definitely many gods and religions that predate christianity that have some copycat qualities. Vic gave you one, Min gave you another.

There’s Romulus born centuries before jesus (a dying and rising god). According to Livy, he was born of a virgin, impregnated by Mars. At the end of his life he was at the Campus Martius during a thunderstorm, and loud cracks of thunder struck and he was surrounded by fog, and assumed into heaven. Sounds like Elijah, Moses, Enoch, Jesus, and Mary. Their bodies were taken to heaven. After many had witnessed this, they called him the son of god. Interesting enough the Romans had a trinity as well in Mars, Jupiter, and Quirinus.

"Their bodies were taken to heaven"? That's not what Christians believe about Jesus, is it?

From what I’ve noticed, I haven’t seen an exact copycat, like you’re saying Randy, but during the time of the alleged son of god that you worship, there was a shit ton of people doing the same things jesus was as well.

Of course, you have Appolonius of Tyana, who’s story was so similar, but likely just a few decades after jesus. His mother was visited from heaven and told her that she would bare a son that was not going to be mortal, but the son of god. He preached things like, “You should not be concerned with earthly possessions, and you should be more concerned with the eternal afterlife.” He performed similar miracles to jesus: rose the dead, healed the sick, cast out demons, etc. The authorities of Rome arrested him, put him on trial and executed him. He came back from the dead to appear before a follower of his that doubted that he had risen. After his life, his followers wrote about him, just like jesus.

According to Philostratus, there was a heavy amount of eye witness testimony of these things. Which bullshit story is right??? I’m sure it’s yours. It’s always the person making the claim… You may not have a total copycat story, but there are many stories borrowed from previous ones, then they are added to the next bullshit story.

Thank you for that bit I highlighted above...but it's not me who's done the research, of course. I just read what others have learned from their studies of the ancient pagan religions.

This really ought to silence the Osiris/Horus/Mithra/whatever crowd, don't you think? But it doesn't fit what they want to believe in their eagerness to discount Christianity...so they will continue making absurd comparisons.

This is all from your boy, Ehrman’s research.

That was, yes, and I posted it because he should have some credibility with the atheists here. I'm beginning to understand why atheist might view him as something of an "Uncle Tom'.

Ehrman, also says that he sees no reason to believe that Joseph of Arimathea gave him a proper burial (nor did a burial even take place) or there was an empty tomb, how do you feel about that? Do you agree with him?

Of course not. But here's why:

On the subject of the existence of Jesus and the value of the gospels, etc., Ehrman is standing on solid ground with the vast majority of NT scholars. Good so far. Then he loses his footing when he begins to wander away from the majority opinion.

But that's why he's an atheist.

Out of all the religious stories, why did yours happen,

Christianity happened because God stepped into history in the incarnation.

and why do all the eye witness testimony of Appolonius’s miracles not count? How come jesus’s count in your eyes?

I won't pretend to be an expert on Appolonius since I've never heard of him...and that's kinda the point. One set of eyewitnesses has been found credible whereas another has not.

Jesus is God, and He is alive and active in His Church throughout the world.

Appolonius, apparently, is not.

[Randy Carson]

Same shit, different day. And the cycle carries on.

I've observed that same characteristic in your own posts.

[Iroscato]

Guess we were made for each other then.