Debunking the "Dying and Rising Gods" Theory

[dyresand]

OP don't you have a rapture to prepare for?

[The Grand Nudger]

Pagans don't get raptured.  Randy qualifies as-such.  Ask any of the others.

[Lemonvariable72]

Well this latest attempt has failed. Agreed Osiris isn't the best example but other posters her have shown a few. Dionysus is another, born of immaculate conception between Zeus and Semele. He was later cast to the Titans by hera and revived after he died. Hell he even returned Semele to life. So sorry man but it seems it was not a unheard of narrative in the Hellenistic world.

And elsewhere, I have posted quotes from Dr. Yamauchi, a recognized expert in the field of middle-eastern pagan religions who has spent his entire academic career examining these so-called "dying and rising gods".

Not only is there every reason to believe that the pagans actually took their beliefs from Christianity in the second century and later, but there are no legitimate pre-Christian candidates for the role of a prototype dying and rising God.

Jesus is unique.

Dude Dionysus predates Christianity by Atleast 800 years with his earliest appearance in the illiad and the Odyssey.

[Minimalist]

“But those who hand down the myths which the poets have made, adduce no proof to the youths who learn them; and we proceed to demonstrate that they have been uttered by the influence of the wicked demons, to deceive and lead astray the human race. For having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come, and that the ungodly among men were to be punished by fire, they put forward many to be called sons of Jupiter, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things which were said with regard to Christ were mere marvelous tales, like the things which were said by the poets.”

Justin Martyr, First Apology

What kind of asshole still believes in "wicked demons" in the 21st century?  Oh, yeah...Randy and fucking pope frank.  Two schmucks.

[Exian]

I don't care who stole the idea from whom, or who came up with the idea first. I'm just glad we all finally agree that it was an idea.

[drfuzzy]

Yeah, yeah, I have saved a bunch of articles on the "dying and rising" gods that predate Jesus.  But I only have them because they can make theists freak out.  I don't care where the myth came from.  Most myths are built on older myths, that's certainly nothing new.  As for xtianity, it probably was too.  

I don't believe in god.  That means that the only value any book written about god could possibly have is to preserve a history of how ignorant people viewed the world.

[robvalue]

I just tipped the last bit of yoghurt into a bowl, then ate it. Why didn't I just eat it out of the tub?

Sorry, carry on.

[Reforged]

The "dying and rising gods" theory is a currently popular argument against Christianity which states that Jesus was a copycat - or rather that His disciples were simply copying other pagan religions when they claimed that Jesus died and rose again from the dead.

Although this theory has been thoroughly debunked in the past, it occasionally rears its ugly head requiring a fresh effort to dismantle it. In the following passage taken from his book, Did Jesus Exist?, atheist Bart Ehrman provides just such a demolition of this copycat nonsense. Ehrman writes:

“[Consider] the instance of Osiris, commonly cited by mythicist as a pagan parallel to Jesus. Osiris was an Egyptian god about who a good deal was written in the ancient world. We have texts discussion Osiris that span a thousand years. None was as influential or as well known as the account of the famous philosopher and religion scholar of the second Christian century, Plutarch, in his work Isis and Osiris. According to the myths, Osiris was murdered and his body was dismembered and scattered. But his wife, Isis, went on a search to recover and reassemble them, leading to Osiris’ rejuvenation. The key point to stress, however, is that Osiris does not—decidedly does not—return to life. Instead he becomes the powerful ruler of the underworld. And so for Osiris there is not rising from the dead.

“[Jonathan Z.] Smith maintains that the entire tradition about Osiris may derive from the processes of mummification in Egypt, where bodies were prepared for ongoing life in the realm of the dead (not as resuscitated corpses here on earth). And so Smith draws the conclusion, ‘In no sense can the dramatic myth of his death and reanimation be harmonized to the pattern of dying and rising gods.’ The same can be said, in Smith’s view, of all the other divine beings often pointed to as pagan forerunners of Jesus. Some die but don’t return; some disappear without dying and do return; but none of them die and return.

“Jonathan Z. Smith’s well-documented views have made a large impact on scholarship. A second article, by Mark S. Smith, has been equally informative. Mark Smith is a scholar of the ancient Near East gods and Hebrew Bible who also opposes any notion of dying and rising gods in the ancient world. Mark Smith makes the compelling argument that when [Sir James George] Frazer devised his theory about dying and rising gods, he was heavily influenced by his understanding of Christianity and Christian claims about Christ. But when one looks at the actual data about the pagan deities, without the lenses provided by later Christian views, there is nothing to make one consider them as gods who die and rise again. Smith shows why such views are deeply problematic for Osiris, Dumuzi, Melqart, Heracles, Adonis and Baal.

“According to Smith, the methodological problem that afflicted Frazer was that he took data about various divine beings, spanning more than a millennium, from a wide range of cultures, and smashed the data all together into a synthesis that never existed. This would be like taking views of Jesus from a French monk of the twelfth century, a Calvinist of the seventeenth century, a Mormon of the late nineteenth century, and a Pentecostal preacher of today, combining them all together into one overall picture and saying, “That’s who Jesus was understood to be.” We would never do that with Jesus. Why should we do it with Osiris, Heracles, or Baal? Moreover, Smith emphasizes, a good deal of our information about these other gods comes from sources that date from a period after the rise of Christianity, writers who were themselves influenced by the Christian views of Jesus and ‘who often received their information second-hand.’ In other words, they probably do not tell us what pagans themselves, before Christianity, were saying about the gods they worshiped.

“The majority of scholars agree with the views of Smith and Smith: there is not unambiguous evidence that any pagans prior to Christianity believed in dying and rising gods, let alone that it was a widespread view held by lots of pagans in lots of times and places.” (Bart Ehrman, Did Jesus Exist?, 228-230.)

+++

Special thanks to AF Moderator pocaracas for his guidance regarding this post via PM at CAF.

I don't think the theory was meant to imply that it was the *exact* same tale. Rather that through a millennial long series of Chinese whispers a single tale became many with many differences but certain core similarities which remain constant due to them being popular. Such is the cycle with myths, stories and folk lore.
It looks suspiciously like the person you've quoted has purposefully ignored this. Its abit lazy that you directly quoted him instead of putting it in your own words.

[GrandizerII]

The "dying and rising gods" theory is a currently popular argument against Christianity which states that Jesus was a copycat - or rather that His disciples were simply copying other pagan religions when they claimed that Jesus died and rose again from the dead.

Although this theory has been thoroughly debunked in the past, it occasionally rears its ugly head requiring a fresh effort to dismantle it. In the following passage taken from his book, Did Jesus Exist?, atheist Bart Ehrman provides just such a demolition of this copycat nonsense. Ehrman writes:

“[Consider] the instance of Osiris, commonly cited by mythicist as a pagan parallel to Jesus. Osiris was an Egyptian god about who a good deal was written in the ancient world. We have texts discussion Osiris that span a thousand years. None was as influential or as well known as the account of the famous philosopher and religion scholar of the second Christian century, Plutarch, in his work Isis and Osiris. According to the myths, Osiris was murdered and his body was dismembered and scattered. But his wife, Isis, went on a search to recover and reassemble them, leading to Osiris’ rejuvenation. The key point to stress, however, is that Osiris does not—decidedly does not—return to life. Instead he becomes the powerful ruler of the underworld. And so for Osiris there is not rising from the dead.

“[Jonathan Z.] Smith maintains that the entire tradition about Osiris may derive from the processes of mummification in Egypt, where bodies were prepared for ongoing life in the realm of the dead (not as resuscitated corpses here on earth). And so Smith draws the conclusion, ‘In no sense can the dramatic myth of his death and reanimation be harmonized to the pattern of dying and rising gods.’ The same can be said, in Smith’s view, of all the other divine beings often pointed to as pagan forerunners of Jesus. Some die but don’t return; some disappear without dying and do return; but none of them die and return.

“Jonathan Z. Smith’s well-documented views have made a large impact on scholarship. A second article, by Mark S. Smith, has been equally informative. Mark Smith is a scholar of the ancient Near East gods and Hebrew Bible who also opposes any notion of dying and rising gods in the ancient world. Mark Smith makes the compelling argument that when [Sir James George] Frazer devised his theory about dying and rising gods, he was heavily influenced by his understanding of Christianity and Christian claims about Christ. But when one looks at the actual data about the pagan deities, without the lenses provided by later Christian views, there is nothing to make one consider them as gods who die and rise again. Smith shows why such views are deeply problematic for Osiris, Dumuzi, Melqart, Heracles, Adonis and Baal.

“According to Smith, the methodological problem that afflicted Frazer was that he took data about various divine beings, spanning more than a millennium, from a wide range of cultures, and smashed the data all together into a synthesis that never existed. This would be like taking views of Jesus from a French monk of the twelfth century, a Calvinist of the seventeenth century, a Mormon of the late nineteenth century, and a Pentecostal preacher of today, combining them all together into one overall picture and saying, “That’s who Jesus was understood to be.” We would never do that with Jesus. Why should we do it with Osiris, Heracles, or Baal? Moreover, Smith emphasizes, a good deal of our information about these other gods comes from sources that date from a period after the rise of Christianity, writers who were themselves influenced by the Christian views of Jesus and ‘who often received their information second-hand.’ In other words, they probably do not tell us what pagans themselves, before Christianity, were saying about the gods they worshiped.

“The majority of scholars agree with the views of Smith and Smith: there is not unambiguous evidence that any pagans prior to Christianity believed in dying and rising gods, let alone that it was a widespread view held by lots of pagans in lots of times and places.” (Bart Ehrman, Did Jesus Exist?, 228-230.)

+++

Special thanks to AF Moderator pocaracas for his guidance regarding this post via PM at CAF.

I don't doubt this, not because Bart Ehman said it, but because my own research has shown me that most of what proponents of the dying/rising copycat hypothesis come up with is full of peanut butter and baloney.

Sure, there were quite a number of characters in prior mythologies to Christianity that died and came back to life, that's without question. But none of such accounts reveals any striking similarities between any of such characters and Jesus to the point that the explanation is that Jesus was a copycat figure of those characters. None of them were said to have died on the cross and risen on the third day. That's not something you read in the primary texts, only in later texts often written by so-called "scholars" in the last couple of centuries and lacking in references.

[GrandizerII]

And elsewhere, I have posted quotes from Dr. Yamauchi, a recognized expert in the field of middle-eastern pagan religions who has spent his entire academic career examining these so-called "dying and rising gods".

Not only is there every reason to believe that the pagans actually took their beliefs from Christianity in the second century and later, but there are no legitimate pre-Christian candidates for the role of a prototype dying and rising God.

Jesus is unique.

Dude Dionysus predates Christianity by Atleast 800 years with his earliest appearance in the illiad and the Odyssey.

Yes, indeed. And I advise every one of you to read those stories yourselves and not take anyone's word for what these stories purportedly say. Iliad is mainly about the Trojan War (primarily Achilles vs. Hector), and the Odyssey is about the adventures of Odysseus on his way back from Troy. Beautiful stories. Other Greek mythology stories are fun to read as well.