Proving the Bible is false in few words.

[The_Flying_Skeptic]

The immaterial consciousness is what we talk about most around here.

who says that consciousness is immaterial?

[Watson]

If consciousness isn't immaterial, show that it exists as a physical object or occurence. Otherwise, it must be believed that consiousness is immaterial.

[Caecilian]

1a- OK I had to look that one up. I would say because this is the only perspective we have until we can talk to animal, meet intellegent life or the like. I'd be interested in discussing religion with a martian.

Its true that our human perspective is the only perspective that we have. Still, you seem to be saying that its some sort of priveleged perspective- or is it just a fluke that the creator of the universe is perfect to us?

Religion is, I think, intrinsically anthropomorphic. That isn't my idea- it comes out of the work of the anthropologist/ philosopher Levi-Strauss. He argued that religion is a projecting of human values and attributes on to the material universe. The most clear-cut case is in my view ethics. Christians see ethics as having a source exterior to humanity- they are, if you like, part of the fabric of the universe. This is imo self-deception.

1b- You are a complex entity, you when you speak or act it is based off of the "I" . That the consciousness is singular and immaterial yet your construct is material and complex. God you be both immaterial and material to affect this universe. There is no evidence for the material portion, whether that's a quantum singularity, dark energy, electrical fluxes or something as yet undiscovered. The immaterial consciousness is what we talk about most around here.

I disagree with you on 2 major issues here. First of all, I would dispute the view that 'I' is some sort of singularity. Secondly, I don't think that consciousness is immaterial. In fact, I don't think that consciousness could be immaterial and still have causal powers.

2-You're not going to like that the tests and evidence are subjective, but God fits that criteria for me.

Obviously I'm going to disagree with you. However, you'll need to elaborate a bit more before I can say much more than that.

[tackattack]

---

1a- OK I had to look that one up. I would say because this is the only perspective we have until we can talk to animal, meet intellegent life or the like. I'd be interested in discussing religion with a martian.

Its true that our human perspective is the only perspective that we have. Still, you seem to be saying that its some sort of priveleged perspective- or is it just a fluke that the creator of the universe is perfect to us?

Religion is, I think, intrinsically anthropomorphic. That isn't my idea- it comes out of the work of the anthropologist/ philosopher Levi-Strauss. He argued that religion is a projecting of human values and attributes on to the material universe. The most clear-cut case is in my view ethics. Christians see ethics as having a source exterior to humanity- they are, if you like, part of the fabric of the universe. This is imo self-deception.

1b- You are a complex entity, you when you speak or act it is based off of the "I" . That the consciousness is singular and immaterial yet your construct is material and complex. God you be both immaterial and material to affect this universe. There is no evidence for the material portion, whether that's a quantum singularity, dark energy, electrical fluxes or something as yet undiscovered. The immaterial consciousness is what we talk about most around here.

I disagree with you on 2 major issues here. First of all, I would dispute the view that 'I' is some sort of singularity. Secondly, I don't think that consciousness is immaterial. In fact, I don't think that consciousness could be immaterial and still have causal powers.

2-You're not going to like that the tests and evidence are subjective, but God fits that criteria for me.

Obviously I'm going to disagree with you. However, you'll need to elaborate a bit more before I can say much more than that.

---

1a-No I'm not saying it's privileged at all. Dolphins could have a completely different view of God, which I'd be willing to entertain completely. Until we can communicate with another species though, all we have is our perspective as life forms with our particular tools for survivability.


1b-I is the self. We are independant objects with different positions in space and the intellect to determine our place in that space, that is the I or self. As far as the immaterialness of mind. Brain is the word we use for the physical parts that generate thoughts. Mind is a term usually for the abstract processes compiled in those physical structures. Consciousness would be the self portion of that mind. Two people can have physically identical brains, but because they are 2 seperate entities existing in space they have a different identifier for self . Catch my drift?

2- Let's keep this about the Bible and not get into "does God exists" and what's your evidence topics. There's plenty of those, most of which I've posted my opinions on.

[Caecilian]

---

1a- OK I had to look that one up. I would say because this is the only perspective we have until we can talk to animal, meet intellegent life or the like. I'd be interested in discussing religion with a martian.

Its true that our human perspective is the only perspective that we have. Still, you seem to be saying that its some sort of priveleged perspective- or is it just a fluke that the creator of the universe is perfect to us?

Religion is, I think, intrinsically anthropomorphic. That isn't my idea- it comes out of the work of the anthropologist/ philosopher Levi-Strauss. He argued that religion is a projecting of human values and attributes on to the material universe. The most clear-cut case is in my view ethics. Christians see ethics as having a source exterior to humanity- they are, if you like, part of the fabric of the universe. This is imo self-deception.

1b- You are a complex entity, you when you speak or act it is based off of the "I" . That the consciousness is singular and immaterial yet your construct is material and complex. God you be both immaterial and material to affect this universe. There is no evidence for the material portion, whether that's a quantum singularity, dark energy, electrical fluxes or something as yet undiscovered. The immaterial consciousness is what we talk about most around here.

I disagree with you on 2 major issues here. First of all, I would dispute the view that 'I' is some sort of singularity. Secondly, I don't think that consciousness is immaterial. In fact, I don't think that consciousness could be immaterial and still have causal powers.

2-You're not going to like that the tests and evidence are subjective, but God fits that criteria for me.

Obviously I'm going to disagree with you. However, you'll need to elaborate a bit more before I can say much more than that.

1a-No I'm not saying it's privileged at all. Dolphins could have a completely different view of God, which I'd be willing to entertain completely. Until we can communicate with another species though, all we have is our perspective as life forms with our particular tools for survivability.


1b-I is the self. We are independant objects with different positions in space and the intellect to determine our place in that space, that is the I or self. As far as the immaterialness of mind. Brain is the word we use for the physical parts that generate thoughts. Mind is a term usually for the abstract processes compiled in those physical structures. Consciousness would be the self portion of that mind. Two people can have physically identical brains, but because they are 2 seperate entities existing in space they have a different identifier for self . Catch my drift?

2- Let's keep this about the Bible and not get into "does God exists" and what's your evidence topics. There's plenty of those, most of which I've posted my opinions on.

---

1a Hmmm... Well, I think that you are priveleging the human position, even though you obviosly don't intend to do so. Lets look at it this way:

Lets posit 3 different intelligent species: humans, martians and venusians.
We'll assume that humans, martians and venusians all have radically different ways of apprehending the world, such that no concept or entity could seem perfect to humans and to martians and to venusians.
So what we get is:
Human perspective: God is perfect
Martian perspective: God isn't perfect
Venusian perspective: God isn't perfect

But why not this instead:
Human perspective: God isn't perfect
Martian perspective: God is perfect
Venusian perspective: God isn't perfect

Or this:
Human perspective: God isn't perfect
Martian perspective: God isn't perfect
Venusian perspective: God is perfect

In other words: why is it that the putative creator of the entire universe happens to exemplify human virtues rather than martian, venusian or any other sort of virtues?

The answer, to me, is pretty clear: What you're doing is in effect projecting human virtues on to the universe and calling it 'God'. Its an exercise in anthropomorphizing the non-human world. And its a category error in that its misusing concepts such as goodness and love, taking them out of the human context (where they actually have meaning) and mis-applying them to a universal context in which they are essentially meaningless.

1b The whole issue of consciousness is an exceedingly big and complicated philosophical terrain. I'm happy to discuss it, but on reflection we might want to start a new thread to do so. Personally, I think that we've got enough to deal with discussing the nature of god.

2 I agree completely. No point in going over the same arguments again.

[The_Flying_Skeptic]

If consciousness isn't immaterial, show that it exists as a physical object or occurence. Otherwise, it must be believed that consiousness is immaterial.

argument from ignorance anyone? I'm talking about consciousness with tackattack over at the Deism vs. Atheism thread in case you were interested.

[Watson]

No, that's not argument from ignorance all. It's a perfectly logical request for proof that conciousness is not, in fact, immaterial.

[The_Flying_Skeptic]

No, that's not argument from ignorance all. It's a perfectly logical request for proof that conciousness is not, in fact, immaterial.

your request is just as logical as my request for proof that consciousness is immaterial. maybe we should just be agnostic on whether or not consciousness is material or immaterial?

[Caecilian]

No, that's not argument from ignorance all. It's a perfectly logical request for proof that conciousness is not, in fact, immaterial.

your request is just as logical as my request for proof that consciousness is immaterial. maybe we should just be agnostic on whether or not consciousness is material or immaterial?

No, I don't think that we need to be agnostic about it at all. Consciousness and other mental phenomena are imo best seen as high-level descriptions of purely physical, material phenomena. Theres a useful analogy with computer programs. A program isn't itself a physical thing, but it is a high-level description of a physical state of affairs.

Anyone who wants to argue for an immaterial mind needs to explain how such a thing could possibly have a causal effect on the physical world.

[tackattack]

@The_Flying_Skeptic - No apparently I wasn't wanted in that discussion, so I bowed out.

---

1a- OK I had to look that one up. I would say because this is the only perspective we have until we can talk to animal, meet intellegent life or the like. I'd be interested in discussing religion with a martian.

Its true that our human perspective is the only perspective that we have. Still, you seem to be saying that its some sort of priveleged perspective- or is it just a fluke that the creator of the universe is perfect to us?

Religion is, I think, intrinsically anthropomorphic. That isn't my idea- it comes out of the work of the anthropologist/ philosopher Levi-Strauss. He argued that religion is a projecting of human values and attributes on to the material universe. The most clear-cut case is in my view ethics. Christians see ethics as having a source exterior to humanity- they are, if you like, part of the fabric of the universe. This is imo self-deception.

1b- You are a complex entity, you when you speak or act it is based off of the "I" . That the consciousness is singular and immaterial yet your construct is material and complex. God you be both immaterial and material to affect this universe. There is no evidence for the material portion, whether that's a quantum singularity, dark energy, electrical fluxes or something as yet undiscovered. The immaterial consciousness is what we talk about most around here.

I disagree with you on 2 major issues here. First of all, I would dispute the view that 'I' is some sort of singularity. Secondly, I don't think that consciousness is immaterial. In fact, I don't think that consciousness could be immaterial and still have causal powers.

2-You're not going to like that the tests and evidence are subjective, but God fits that criteria for me.

Obviously I'm going to disagree with you. However, you'll need to elaborate a bit more before I can say much more than that.

1a-No I'm not saying it's privileged at all. Dolphins could have a completely different view of God, which I'd be willing to entertain completely. Until we can communicate with another species though, all we have is our perspective as life forms with our particular tools for survivability.


1b-I is the self. We are independant objects with different positions in space and the intellect to determine our place in that space, that is the I or self. As far as the immaterialness of mind. Brain is the word we use for the physical parts that generate thoughts. Mind is a term usually for the abstract processes compiled in those physical structures. Consciousness would be the self portion of that mind. Two people can have physically identical brains, but because they are 2 seperate entities existing in space they have a different identifier for self . Catch my drift?

2- Let's keep this about the Bible and not get into "does God exists" and what's your evidence topics. There's plenty of those, most of which I've posted my opinions on.

1a Hmmm... Well, I think that you are priveleging the human position, even though you obviosly don't intend to do so. Lets look at it this way:

Lets posit 3 different intelligent species: humans, martians and venusians.
We'll assume that humans, martians and venusians all have radically different ways of apprehending the world, such that no concept or entity could seem perfect to humans and to martians and to venusians.
So what we get is:
Human perspective: God is perfect
Martian perspective: God isn't perfect
Venusian perspective: God isn't perfect

But why not this instead:
Human perspective: God isn't perfect
Martian perspective: God is perfect
Venusian perspective: God isn't perfect

Or this:
Human perspective: God isn't perfect
Martian perspective: God isn't perfect
Venusian perspective: God is perfect

In other words: why is it that the putative creator of the entire universe happens to exemplify human virtues rather than martian, venusian or any other sort of virtues?

The answer, to me, is pretty clear: What you're doing is in effect projecting human virtues on to the universe and calling it 'God'. Its an exercise in anthropomorphizing the non-human world. And its a category error in that its misusing concepts such as goodness and love, taking them out of the human context (where they actually have meaning) and mis-applying them to a universal context in which they are essentially meaningless.

1b The whole issue of consciousness is an exceedingly big and complicated philosophical terrain. I'm happy to discuss it, but on reflection we might want to start a new thread to do so. Personally, I think that we've got enough to deal with discussing the nature of god.

2 I agree completely. No point in going over the same arguments again.

---

1a- OK I'm pretty sure I can accept and agree to your explanation. In laymen's terms you're talking about human's need to feel a part of the universe so they project human characteristics to increase the feeling of a relationship with the unknown. I'll agree that I personify God probably a little more than I should, but I don't think God is the universe. I think that's because part of human nature is about relating reality through observance then comparing that to our historic perceptions of subjective reality. Typically of course multiple points of reference give a clearer horizon and definition, but for now we only have one. The crux of the Creator arguement applies here. It's about observing instances that exceed probability and lend towards direct control. When hypothesiszing about that control we'd have no reference other than our observances of control here.

1c-- Related to that last sentence there from 1a " taking them out of the human context (where they actually have meaning) and mis-applying them to a universal context in which they are essentially meaningless." I'm going to have to disagree. You're assuming that a universal absolute (personified or not) has no meaning or usefullness. You're also implying God's love would somehow diminish human love when the two aren't comparable directly.

1b- fair enough.