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World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
#21
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 11, 2008 at 10:33 am)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 11, 2008 at 10:25 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: lolSmile
There is a GARGANTUAN difference between just the possibility that some bloke existed. And the supernatural, God and miracles being involved.
Not really, we can rely on ancient documents from historians for proof of an event taking place. I will research my favorites folder for, "External sources on Jesus Christ."
LolSmile you can't prove the supernatural just from within books unless its a mathematical equation or something lol. If it simply says "this is what happened..." in some documents it doesn't mean it did lol. Unless they're magic documents! Lol.
If I write a book that basically said God was a giant earwig made out of marshmallow that had green fur all over it. Would that book be proof that it was true(?) And could I write ANYTHING in that book that WOULD prove that to be true(?)
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#22
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 9, 2008 at 1:14 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: Yes, please drop it because Christian Churches are being uncovered all over the Middle East, and these Churches predate all of the Gospels.

But prove nothing except that the Christian religion existed around these times, it doesn't prove there was a Christ as those religions could well have been Gnostic. .

(December 9, 2008 at 1:14 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: No, it's not a conspiracy. Islamic leaders believe this discovery contradicts the Qu'ran!

And one religion's paranoia about another's claims' proves the latter correct? Get real!

(December 9, 2008 at 1:14 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: This cave proved a man called 'The Christ' existed in 33 A.D.

How? Be specific.

(December 9, 2008 at 1:14 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: This discovery puts atheism at risk of total failure. Atheists have claimed over the last several hundred years that Jesus Christ was a mythical super-hero invented by the Gospel records many decades after his death. Now we are finding caves where Jesus did have followers in 33 a.d. Long before any Gospel account.

Even if there were a literal Jesus Christ it is not proof of the essential Christian claims so no, the idea of atheism is absolutely unaffected by your witterings, however I dispute your claim that these churches are as claimed and that it even "proves" a literal Jesus Christ.

(December 9, 2008 at 1:14 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: But now archaealogists are discovering caves where Jesus Christ did in fact have followers long before the Gospels.

Repeating yourself doesn't make it any more valid, rather implies that your argument is weak.

(December 9, 2008 at 1:14 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: This cave was discovered in Jordan, by a Jordanian archaealogist, which means he is more than likely a Muslim/Islamic believer.

I've yet to see evidence of that claim.

(December 9, 2008 at 1:14 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: Why would a Muslim claim Jesus' followers fled from Jerusalem into Jordan soon after his death?

Do I care? You haven't even demonstrated he is a Muslim yet.

(December 9, 2008 at 1:14 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: I don't know why skeptics have such a hard time swallowing their pride, and openly admitting Jesus Christ existed in the first century, and he was a well respected, and well known Jewish Rabbi that claimed to have the powers of God in him.

I'm forced to wonder why theists don't use their brains more?

(December 9, 2008 at 1:14 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: People, it's a proven fact that a man called, 'the Christ' existed in the first century. This is not a mythical story invented by a bunch of "delusional" men with nothing better to do than make up stories about 'super-heroes."

To quote Eddie Izzard, "Hod-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh, hod-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh, hod-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh ... nope!

(December 9, 2008 at 1:14 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: Jesus existed, my friend.

In your head, sure!

(December 9, 2008 at 1:14 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: You must face the facts sooner or later.

And you the lack of them in support of your claim Smile

Kyu
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#23
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 11, 2008 at 10:53 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:
(December 11, 2008 at 10:33 am)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 11, 2008 at 10:25 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: lolSmile
There is a GARGANTUAN difference between just the possibility that some bloke existed. And the supernatural, God and miracles being involved.
Not really, we can rely on ancient documents from historians for proof of an event taking place. I will research my favorites folder for, "External sources on Jesus Christ."
LolSmile you can't prove the supernatural just from within books unless its a mathematical equation or something lol. If it simply says "this is what happened..." in some documents it doesn't mean it did lol. Unless they're magic documents! Lol.
If I write a book that basically said God was a giant earwig made out of marshmallow that had green fur all over it. Would that book be proof that it was true(?) And could I write ANYTHING in that book that WOULD prove that to be true(?)

Behold: GOD!!!

[Image: 4t0t1d.jpg]
dog·ma
n. pl. dog·mas or dog·ma·ta (-mə-tə)
1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
________________________
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...So you see, people tend to make mistakes.
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#24
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
Ah that's a giant mug with the giant marshmallow earwig with green fur over it lives.
It must be. The mug fits the theme. It must lives there. Its proof.
Thanks for showing me THE LORD Master Earwig! LolTongue
He tastes of marshmallow.
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#25
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 11, 2008 at 10:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: But prove nothing except that the Christian religion existed around these times, it doesn't prove there was a Christ as those religions could well have been Gnostic.
This proves apparently this Christ figure was being worshipped just as the Gospels describe.

Quote:And one religion's paranoia about another's claims' proves the latter correct? Get real!
If the Qu'ran says, "Jesus was not worshipped." No kidding Islamic leaders will probably execute this guy for showing the world "the Islamic prophet was worshipped!" Islam strictly believes, "No earthly man is worth praising". Why would a Muslim come forward and admit this Christ figure was being worshipped?? It's no wonder Islamic leaders in Jordan have halted this story from going any further!

(December 9, 2008 at 1:14 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: This cave proved a man called 'The Christ' existed in 33 A.D.

How? Be specific.
Ask Dr. Al-Hassan. He says he has evidence Jesus Christ existed. And he has solid evidence to make the claim that Jesus was worshipped long before the Gospels were penned.

Quote:Even if there were a literal Jesus Christ it is not proof of the essential Christian claims so no, the idea of atheism is absolutely unaffected by your witterings, however I dispute your claim that these churches are as claimed and that it even "proves" a literal Jesus Christ.
Atheists have rejected the existence of Jesus for the last several hundred years or so. Now we have clues to believe Jesus did exist. Now atheists are saying, 'we believed in Jesus all along, but you can't prove he was Divine.' lol. Gimme a break!

Quote:Repeating yourself doesn't make it any more valid, rather implies that your argument is weak.
Apparently it needs repeating because it's not sinking in.

Quote:I've yet to see evidence of that claim.
Do you know the perentage of Muslims in Jordan compared to Christians? Let me give you a hint. It's like finding a Buddhist believer in America compared to Christians.

Quote:Do I care? You haven't even demonstrated he is a Muslim yet.
My friend told me Dr Al-Hassan is writing a book called, 'The Christ-Cave, my fall from Islam."

Quote:I'm forced to wonder why theists don't use their brains more?
I'm forced to wonder why atheists still reject Jesus the Messiah when evidence is being uncovered.
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#26
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
Because scripture is not evidence.
Besides, why believe in the God you believe in? There are so many others and you don't believe in them instead do you? :p
They're ALL bullshit.
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#27
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
So present the evidence.

A book without a way of verification of its validity outside quotes from the same book is not evidence.
A building is evidence that religious people used a building, it is not evidence on the existence of what they believed existed. The parthenon is not evidence that Athena existed.

You claim Dr Al-Hassan has evidence, present it. The article doesn't do that.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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#28
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
Like all Christians Psalm you are just grasping at straws,Christians have been looking for evidence of the existence of Jesus "the Messiah" for about 2000 years since his fictional story was written.Also,I love the way you neglected to post this aspect of the article:


The earliest established sites of Christian worship in the region date from the 3rd century, and the claims of al-Hassan and his team have yet to be fully tested.

In November 2005, Israeli archaeologists made similar claims for a site at Megiddo, near the biblical Armageddon. They discovered ancient mosaics within the grounds of a prison.

There is some skepticism within the archeological community about this latest discovery as it claims to be so much older than existing Christian churches.

Besides trying to argue the existence of Christ is actually anti-biblical since your own bible states in John 20:29

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

This is what Jesus allegedly said to Thomas for doubting it was him before him after his resurrection.Your relgion is based on faith and so there is no need for evidence.I being an atheist cannot accept faith as a viable method of proving the existence of Christ solely by some story I read in a book.Christ is a myth and is only real in the hearts and minds of those that are gullible enough to buy into the lie.
There is nothing people will not maintain when they are slaves to superstition

http://chatpilot-godisamyth.blogspot.com/

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#29
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 11, 2008 at 12:07 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 11, 2008 at 10:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: But prove nothing except that the Christian religion existed around these times, it doesn't prove there was a Christ as those religions could well have been Gnostic.
This proves apparently this Christ figure was being worshipped just as the Gospels describe.

Perhaps but it DOES NOT prove that Christ figure was real in a physical sense.

(December 11, 2008 at 12:07 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 11, 2008 at 10:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: And one religion's paranoia about another's claims' proves the latter correct? Get real!
If the Qu'ran says, "Jesus was not worshipped." No kidding Islamic leaders will probably execute this guy for showing the world "the Islamic prophet was worshipped!" Islam strictly believes, "No earthly man is worth praising". Why would a Muslim come forward and admit this Christ figure was being worshipped?? It's no wonder Islamic leaders in Jordan have halted this story from going any further!

As I said earlier you have yet to prove this man is a Muslim.

(December 11, 2008 at 12:07 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 11, 2008 at 10:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: How? Be specific.
Ask Dr. Al-Hassan. He says he has evidence Jesus Christ existed. And he has solid evidence to make the claim that Jesus was worshipped long before the Gospels were penned.

It's YOUR claim, YOU ask Hassan, while you're at it you might try confirming the claim above.

(December 11, 2008 at 12:07 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 11, 2008 at 10:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Even if there were a literal Jesus Christ it is not proof of the essential Christian claims so no, the idea of atheism is absolutely unaffected by your witterings, however I dispute your claim that these churches are as claimed and that it even "proves" a literal Jesus Christ.
Atheists have rejected the existence of Jesus for the last several hundred years or so. Now we have clues to believe Jesus did exist. Now atheists are saying, 'we believed in Jesus all along, but you can't prove he was Divine.' lol. Gimme a break!

Er ... no we're not and quite frankly you're being at best disingenuous, at worst lying, to say "we" (as a group) are.

(December 11, 2008 at 12:07 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 11, 2008 at 10:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Repeating yourself doesn't make it any more valid, rather implies that your argument is weak.
Apparently it needs repeating because it's not sinking in.

Apparently such claims need some for of supporting and rationally interpreted evidence as well ... perhaps you'd be so good as top provide something a little more weighty than OPINION.

(December 11, 2008 at 12:07 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 11, 2008 at 10:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: I've yet to see evidence of that claim.
Do you know the perentage of Muslims in Jordan compared to Christians? Let me give you a hint. It's like finding a Buddhist believer in America compared to Christians.

Nope, nor do I greatly care ... please prove Hassan is a Muslim.

(December 11, 2008 at 12:07 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 11, 2008 at 10:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Do I care? You haven't even demonstrated he is a Muslim yet.
My friend told me Dr Al-Hassan is writing a book called, 'The Christ-Cave, my fall from Islam."

Your friend told you? Oh Lord, my eyes have been opened! Just get to it will you? Prove this Hassan is a Muslim.

(December 11, 2008 at 12:07 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 11, 2008 at 10:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: please prove Hassan is a Christian. I'm forced to wonder why theists don't use their brains more?
I'm forced to wonder why atheists still reject Jesus the Messiah when evidence is being uncovered.

And when it is I'm sure we will accept it even if a little unwillingly but until that day please, be a good chap, and provide some [expletive deleted] evidence!!!!!!!!!!!

Kyu
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#30
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 11, 2008 at 7:14 pm)chatpilot Wrote: Like all Christians Psalm you are just grasping at straws,Christians have been looking for evidence of the existence of Jesus "the Messiah" for about 2000 years since his fictional story was written.Also,I love the way you neglected to post this aspect of the article:


The earliest established sites of Christian worship in the region date from the 3rd century, and the claims of al-Hassan and his team have yet to be fully tested.
The earliest Christian Worship was the Church of Saint Georgeous that existed in the 3rd century!

Re-read the article. The cave was dated between 33-70 A.D.
St. Georgeous Church existed in the 3rd century.
(December 12, 2008 at 6:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Perhaps but it DOES NOT prove that Christ figure was real in a physical sense.
Yes it does prove Jesus existed before the N.T.

Quote:As I said earlier you have yet to prove this man is a Muslim.
Christians are executed in Jordan. There's your answer. Do you think Islamic radicals would allow this man to provide evidence of CHRIST on Islamic territory?

Quote:It's YOUR claim, YOU ask Hassan, while you're at it you might try confirming the claim above.
I would love to ask Al-Hassan, but apparenly Islamic Leaders in Jordan have halted this story from going any further. Gee, I wonder why?

Quote:Er ... no we're not and quite frankly you're being at best disingenuous, at worst lying, to say "we" (as a group) are.
Atheists have some explaining to do.

Quote:Apparently such claims need some for of supporting and rationally interpreted evidence as well ... perhaps you'd be so good as top provide something a little more weighty than OPINION.
This cave was not a matter of opinion. It was based on facts. That's why Islamic leaders threatened this guy.

Quote:Nope, nor do I greatly care ... please prove Hassan is a Muslim.
In case you didn't know. Openly admitted Christians are persecuted in Jordan, and most of the Middle East.

Quote:Your friend told you? Oh Lord, my eyes have been opened! Just get to it will you? Prove this Hassan is a Muslim.
I didn't claim it to be true. I just told you what I heard in another forum. But I doubt it to be true since openly public christians are killed in countries like Jordan.

Quote:And when it is I'm sure we will accept it even if a little unwillingly but until that day please, be a good chap, and provide some [expletive deleted] evidence!!!
The evidence has been exposed.

"They will be without excuse!"

That means You!
(December 11, 2008 at 2:08 pm)leo-rcc Wrote: So present the evidence.

A book without a way of verification of its validity outside quotes from the same book is not evidence.
A building is evidence that religious people used a building, it is not evidence on the existence of what they believed existed. The parthenon is not evidence that Athena existed.

You claim Dr Al-Hassan has evidence, present it. The article doesn't do that.
More pictures are showing up across the internet.

http://directionstoorthodoxy.org/mod/gal...ery_id=112
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