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World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
#31
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 12, 2008 at 1:54 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 12, 2008 at 6:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Perhaps but it DOES NOT prove that Christ figure was real in a physical sense.
Yes it does prove Jesus existed before the N.T.

No it doesn't, it potentially infers that there was a thing (possibly a person) called Christ that they worshipped, it does not prove that person exists (or whether it was physical or spiritual) any more than people worshipping god proves that god exists.

(December 12, 2008 at 1:54 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 12, 2008 at 6:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: As I said earlier you have yet to prove this man is a Muslim.
Christians are executed in Jordan. There's your answer. Do you think Islamic radicals would allow this man to provide evidence of CHRIST on Islamic territory?

I don't give a damn ... prove this man was a Muslim.

(December 12, 2008 at 1:54 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 12, 2008 at 6:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: It's YOUR claim, YOU ask Hassan, while you're at it you might try confirming the claim above.
I would love to ask Al-Hassan, but apparenly Islamic Leaders in Jordan have halted this story from going any further. Gee, I wonder why?

Gee, I wonder why you're avoiding the question ... prove Hassan was a Muslim.

(December 12, 2008 at 1:54 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 12, 2008 at 6:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Er ... no we're not and quite frankly you're being at best disingenuous, at worst lying, to say "we" (as a group) are.
Atheists have some explaining to do.

No, YOU are the one making the EXTRAORDINARY claim, it is up to YOU to prove it. Atheists are not all (en masse) claiming what you said, if anything they seem to be shifting towards the idea that your Christ didn't exist at all.

(December 12, 2008 at 1:54 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 12, 2008 at 6:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Apparently such claims need some for of supporting and rationally interpreted evidence as well ... perhaps you'd be so good as top provide something a little more weighty than OPINION.
This cave was not a matter of opinion. It was based on facts. That's why Islamic leaders threatened this guy.

The cave is evidence certainly however it has yet to be demonstrated that it supports your claims. I tentatively accept it demonstrates Christian worship at the time the cave was in use ... you have yet to demonstrate that Hassan is a Muslim (a key part of your argument as it reflects on a possible pro-Christian agenda), that the cave is as old as Hassan claims and that the "worshippers" (if any) were literally worshipping a physical Christ (it remains a possibility that they were Gnostics, Gnostics apparently believed Christ was a spiritual rather than physical being).

(December 12, 2008 at 1:54 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 12, 2008 at 6:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Nope, nor do I greatly care ... please prove Hassan is a Muslim.
In case you didn't know. Openly admitted Christians are persecuted in Jordan, and most of the Middle East.

I don't give a damn ... prove this man was a Muslim.

(December 12, 2008 at 1:54 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 12, 2008 at 6:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Your friend told you? Oh Lord, my eyes have been opened! Just get to it will you? Prove this Hassan is a Muslim.
I didn't claim it to be true. I just told you what I heard in another forum. But I doubt it to be true since openly public christians are killed in countries like Jordan.

You "heard it in another forum"??? What the #@&% do you think evidence is? If you "heard it another forum" it is not unreasonable to NOT treat this claim as evidence, at best it is hearsay. I don't care what you think it means; you're biased ... I care about the facts.

(December 12, 2008 at 1:54 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 12, 2008 at 6:59 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: And when it is I'm sure we will accept it even if a little unwillingly but until that day please, be a good chap, and provide some [expletive deleted] evidence!!!
The evidence has been exposed.

No, your OPINION has been exposed. Unsupported opinion (especially form one with so obvious an agenda) is not now and never will be considered evidence.

(December 12, 2008 at 1:54 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote: "They will be without excuse!"

That means You!

Like I give a damn!

Kyu
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#32
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
We should start a counter of how many times we've asked fundamentalists to "prove X" and they've ignored us completely (or failed to prove X).
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#33
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 14, 2008 at 9:24 am)Tiberius Wrote: We should start a counter of how many times we've asked fundamentalists to "prove X" and they've ignored us completely (or failed to prove X).

I know it looks bad, kind of vicious and unfair, but I don't think it's a bad thing to keep repeating one or more questions until the person concerned actually gives an acceptable (relevant) answer. Nor do I think it's actually wrong (though it is probably harder to justify) to keep telling someone that their answer is wrong ... IOW that the answer you had previously supplied is still correct despite their come back.

Kyu
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#34
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
Hey, if the question isn't addressed properly then of course we can ask it again. Just perhaps phrase it differently so it doesn't get too boring. Although often its not understood then anyway. So often you have to ask the same questions over and over Rolleyes
We don't have to of course. But if we don't then we shouldn't have to go about disproving God. Proving a negative. When the burden of proof is on them - for instance.
We have to make it clear to them that the burden of proof is on the believer.
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#35
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 14, 2008 at 9:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: No it doesn't, it potentially infers that there was a thing (possibly a person) called Christ that they worshipped, it does not prove that person exists (or whether it was physical or spiritual) any more than people worshipping god proves that god exists.
Jesus was not there physically. They were worshipping him in spirit. He was already executed by the Romans.

Quote:I don't give a damn ... prove this man was a Muslim.
Research him for yourself. Dr Abdul Qader Al-Hassan

Quote:Gee, I wonder why you're avoiding the question ... prove Hassan was a Muslim.
He is a Muslim. Research him Dr Abdul Qader Al-Hassan

Quote:No, YOU are the one making the EXTRAORDINARY claim, it is up to YOU to prove it. Atheists are not all (en masse) claiming what you said, if anything they seem to be shifting towards the idea that your Christ didn't exist at all.
No, I said the archaealogists have evidence.

Quote:The cave is evidence certainly however it has yet to be demonstrated that it supports your claims. I tentatively accept it demonstrates Christian worship at the time the cave was in use ... you have yet to demonstrate that Hassan is a Muslim (a key part of your argument as it reflects on a possible pro-Christian agenda), that the cave is as old as Hassan claims and that the "worshippers" (if any) were literally worshipping a physical Christ (it remains a possibility that they were Gnostics, Gnostics apparently believed Christ was a spiritual rather than physical being).
Nobody has claimed "Jesus was in this cave."

Quote:I don't give a damn ... prove this man was a Muslim.
I've told you to research it.

Quote:You "heard it in another forum"??? What the #@&% do you think evidence is? If you "heard it another forum" it is not unreasonable to NOT treat this claim as evidence, at best it is hearsay. I don't care what you think it means; you're biased ... I care about the facts.
Show me where I said it was evidence?

Quote:No, your OPINION has been exposed. Unsupported opinion (especially form one with so obvious an agenda) is not now and never will be considered evidence.
It's not my opinion. You might want to talk to Dr. Al-Hassan.

Quote:Like I give a damn!
No one says you have to.
Reply
#36
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 14, 2008 at 2:57 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 9:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: No it doesn't, it potentially infers that there was a thing (possibly a person) called Christ that they worshipped, it does not prove that person exists (or whether it was physical or spiritual) any more than people worshipping god proves that god exists.
Jesus was not there physically. They were worshipping him in spirit. He was already executed by the Romans.

There is no suggestion (no validatable evidence) that he was EVER physical!!!! Pay Attention!

(December 14, 2008 at 2:57 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 9:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: I don't give a damn ... prove this man was a Muslim.
Research him for yourself. Dr Abdul Qader Al-Hassan

It's YOUR claim, you do the #&%@ research!!!!

(December 14, 2008 at 2:57 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 9:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Gee, I wonder why you're avoiding the question ... prove Hassan was a Muslim.
He is a Muslim. Research him Dr Abdul Qader Al-Hassan

See above!

Quote:No, YOU are the one making the EXTRAORDINARYclaim, it is up to YOU to prove it. Atheists are not all (en masse) claiming what you said, if anything they seem to be shifting towards the idea that your Christ didn't exist at all.
No, I said the archaealogists have evidence.[/quote]

Archaeologists have evidence that atheists are becoming more convinced that Jesus was real? Shit man ... those archaeologists are something aren't they?

(December 14, 2008 at 2:57 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 9:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: The cave is evidence certainly however it has yet to be demonstrated that it supports your claims. I tentatively accept it demonstrates Christian worship at the time the cave was in use ... you have yet to demonstrate that Hassan is a Muslim (a key part of your argument as it reflects on a possible pro-Christian agenda), that the cave is as old as Hassan claims and that the "worshippers" (if any) were literally worshipping a physical Christ (it remains a possibility that they were Gnostics, Gnostics apparently believed Christ was a spiritual rather than physical being).
Nobody has claimed "Jesus was in this cave."

I never said he was! Pay Attention!

(December 14, 2008 at 2:57 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 9:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: I don't give a damn ... prove this man was a Muslim.
I've told you to research it.

See above!

(December 14, 2008 at 2:57 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 9:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: You "heard it in another forum"??? What the #@&% do you think evidence is? If you "heard it another forum" it is not unreasonable to NOT treat this claim as evidence, at best it is hearsay. I don't care what you think it means; you're biased ... I care about the facts.
Show me where I said it was evidence?

Your words, "The evidence has been exposed" & "People, it's a proven fact that a man called, 'the Christ' existed in the first century."

(December 14, 2008 at 2:57 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 9:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: No, your OPINION has been exposed. Unsupported opinion (especially form one with so obvious an agenda) is not now and never will be considered evidence.
It's not my opinion. You might want to talk to Dr. Al-Hassan.

Not in the slightest bit interested in talking to him certainly not until you provide some evidence to back up your claim.

(December 14, 2008 at 2:57 pm)Psalm 23 Wrote:
(December 14, 2008 at 9:01 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Like I give a damn!
No one says you have to.

Well there, at least, is one thing we can agree on.

Kyu
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#37
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
A great Kyuuketsuki smackdown Smile

Doesn't seem like Psalm 23 is going to do the research, so I'm going to have to force him to. Psalm 23, I found a site that stated "Abdul Qader Al-Hassan converted to Christianity 12 years ago". I'd very much like to see your evidence that says otherwise...
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#38
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
Great post Kyu.
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#39
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 14, 2008 at 5:11 pm)Tiberius Wrote: A great Kyuuketsuki smackdown Smile

Thanks (EvF too) ... unfortunately I'm beginning to lose it with these people, I no longer have the tolerance for the stupidity they repeatedly demonstrate.

(December 14, 2008 at 5:11 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Doesn't seem like Psalm 23 is going to do the research, so I'm going to have to force him to. Psalm 23, I found a site that stated "Abdul Qader Al-Hassan converted to Christianity 12 years ago". I'd very much like to see your evidence that says otherwise...

Well done.

Kyu
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#40
RE: World's Oldest Christian Church discovered in Jordan!!
(December 14, 2008 at 4:20 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: There is no suggestion (no validatable evidence) that he was EVER physical!!!! Pay Attention!
That is not a very strong arguement. Do you know why early first century Christians had to flee into Jordan in the first place?

Quote:It's YOUR claim, you do the #&%@ research!!!!
I did the research, and I found out that Christians are executed, and or deported from Jordan. I highly doubt Jordan's leading archaeologist is a Christian believer. http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/11570428/

Quote:Archaeologists have evidence that atheists are becoming more convinced that Jesus was real? Shit man ... those archaeologists are something aren't they?
Yup, for hundreds of years we had to hear atheists tell us, "Jesus is imaginary." This cave says "Not so much!"


Quote:I never said he was! Pay Attention!
Doesn't matter if Jesus was there or not. The bottom line is, we have found evidence to believe this site was a worship ground for Jesus of Nazereth. Did you research the artifacts that were discovered?

Quote:Your words, "The evidence has been exposed" & "People, it's a proven fact that a man called, 'the Christ' existed in the first century."
The evidence lays within the cave. What would the author of the Harry Potter books say if she found out Harry Potter was being worshipped 30 years ago?

Quote:Not in the slightest bit interested in talking to him certainly not until you provide some evidence to back up your claim.
Talk to the man who made the claim. I've seen the evidence. it's time for you to do your own homework.

"They will be without excuse!"
(December 14, 2008 at 5:11 pm)Tiberius Wrote: A great Kyuuketsuki smackdown Smile

Doesn't seem like Psalm 23 is going to do the research, so I'm going to have to force him to. Psalm 23, I found a site that stated "Abdul Qader Al-Hassan converted to Christianity 12 years ago". I'd very much like to see your evidence that says otherwise...
I don't think you understand the penalty of being a Christian in Jordan. Do some more research.
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