Frank Discussion on Hate

[Eilonnwy]

The word 'hate' has many connotations, that's part of the problem this discussion has going in. I hate mushrooms, for example. I don't simply dislike them. I fucking hate them. That kind of hate harms no one, so it's really a non-issue.

I feel the same way about green beans. Mushrooms, though, are one of my favorite foods.

I would say that you hate the person who killedyour mother (continuing your analogy) because of your resentment of that person for what they've taken from your reality. They truly did nothing to you directly for you to hate, they didn't rape you or punch you, most of theese hates are indirect or based off of prejudiced. They're the ones based off of resentment and envy.

I think killing my mother is a bit more direct than you make it out to be. :/

What would it take for you to not harbor that resentment thus ridding you of the hate?

Depends on the offense. Killing my mother I think is a transgression that is almost impossible to get over. Stealing my cash is different. Recovering that cash and apologizing could do the trick. (Though trust would be lost)

Can a Robot hate?

I don't know. I'm not a robot.

But as near as I can tell, feelings result from biological occurrences within our brain. Of course that's an over simplification,I would not devalue feelings based on that, but if it's required to have feelings...then...but who knows what the science can do in decades or centuries.

If there was a drug that temporarily disabled your emotional ability what would happen after it wore off?? Would you still hate your rapist?

Well, since it's temporary and my emotions come back, I think I would still hate my rapist.

[tackattack]

I won't add to the tangent about hated foods, but I will explore it as relevant. Obviously no one fears broccoli or grean beans, barring psychological problems (nightmares, aversions). Fear then isn't the root for hate. However, if you ate broccolli and you resent the affect it had on your tastebuds/ stomach that could develop into hate. The value of that hate isn't surprising because it's a direct violation of your person. Subconsciously the body protects the necessities like food, water, sleep thus creating a very stong value of emotional response. I don't think you could actually hate some imaginary fruit called fruopopto, if someone just told you how bad it is. You'd have an aversion or prejudice perhaps, but that wouldn't even be close to the relation of hate. I still see resentment as the basest cause we've discussed so far.

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The word 'hate' has many connotations, that's part of the problem this discussion has going in. I hate mushrooms, for example. I don't simply dislike them. I fucking hate them. That kind of hate harms no one, so it's really a non-issue.

I feel the same way about green beans. Mushrooms, though, are one of my favorite foods.

I would say that you hate the person who killedyour mother (continuing your analogy) because of your resentment of that person for what they've taken from your reality. They truly did nothing to you directly for you to hate, they didn't rape you or punch you, most of theese hates are indirect or based off of prejudiced. They're the ones based off of resentment and envy.

I think killing my mother is a bit more direct than you make it out to be. :/

What would it take for you to not harbor that resentment thus ridding you of the hate?

Depends on the offense. Killing my mother I think is a transgression that is almost impossible to get over. Stealing my cash is different. Recovering that cash and apologizing could do the trick. (Though trust would be lost)

Can a Robot hate?

I don't know. I'm not a robot.

But as near as I can tell, feelings result from biological occurrences within our brain. Of course that's an over simplification,I would not devalue feelings based on that, but if it's required to have feelings...then...but who knows what the science can do in decades or centuries.

If there was a drug that temporarily disabled your emotional ability what would happen after it wore off?? Would you still hate your rapist?

Well, since it's temporary and my emotions come back, I think I would still hate my rapist.

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I'm going to have to respectfully disagree Eil. Direct is by definition to your person, indirect is everything else.
"without intervening persons, influences, factors, etc.; immediate; personal: direct contact with the voters; direct exposure to a disease. "

Actually this explains the naturally strong bond between parents and their offspring. I would say it's general practice for the parent (especially mother) to objectify the child due to it's being created inside them and a product of them. For good parents this leads to very stong instictual protective impulses, I would say a lot more than the child to the parent relationship. In the case of the crackhead who sells her kid for drugs or the teen who puts it in the dumpster I'd like to hypothesise. Disclaimer, I'm not a woman and usually don't speak about abortions, child endangerment and abuse, this is merely a mental excercise on "paper" to flesh out an idea. Please don't take any offence.

If the parent can choose to value a direct threat to herself (parents will change my home life or withdrawl symptoms) over the objective value of an offspring, it would flow nicely. They could resent themselves thus lowering the value of anything produced by them as anyvalue. They could resent what direct threat the child poses to their lifestyle, thus creating a hate/depression mix. That seems to flow that resentment is the base for hatred and the value / strengthis based either on direct/indirect values.

Eil you said, "since it's temporary and my emotions come back, I think I would still hate my rapist". What about if you could selectively wipe out the memory of the rape? Can the emotional tag "hate" surive without the focus or memory? Does the focus wan with a less emotional approach? I can't see a robot holding a grudge for instance, ever. I don't think a robot would hate because I think an intrigal part of resentment is a time or prolongment factor. If you only resent something for that 1 instant you experience it, I don't think that can move to hate. IDK, I'm getting tired, thoughts?

Ok what about overcoming hate, which was my intended route for this convo to go. Is forgiveness a choice or a consequence? Does forgetting erase emotionally tagged hated things? How much affect does focusing your attention on the hated object or dwelling on the resenment have on the length and intensity of that emotinal response? Is it possible to forgive and forget?

[fr0d0]

Yoda says some fucking stupid things you know. "There is no try, there is only do" - Yoda.....

That's an awesome quote - I love it

I hate that my 'T's never capitalise and I have to correct that

EVF

I HATE that you do that!!!

Ok what about overcoming hate, which was my intended route for this convo to go. Is forgiveness a choice or a consequence? Does forgetting erase emotionally tagged hated things? How much affect does focusing your attention on the hated object or dwelling on the resenment have on the length and intensity of that emotinal response? Is it possible to forgive and forget?

I've managed to forgive a few things successfully. I tell myself that hatred is destructive - that it's me that's really suffering. It's an ongoing process too: I harbour hatred towards the boss from my last job. In my mind I've conspired many ways to exact revenge, and have to talk myself down. Slowly it's going away. I'm sure if I acted it'd last a lot longer.

[tackattack]

If you focus you will on pushing the negative things you're harboring towards him out of your consciouness, could you forget the thigs he's done? Wouldn't it be easier at that point to then dwell on the resentment less thus decreasing it's intensity. Would there be apoint where you've successfully overcome your memory of events and resentment that it would cease to be an objec you could consciouly latch onto thus negating all hatred? I'm saying at whatpoint and with what cause would you go from hearing omeone mention his name and saying "I hate that MOFO" to "John who?"

[fr0d0]

Time heals and you gotz to let it. That's not the point I suppose. The point is dealing with the emotion and not letting it bring you down. I guess I've used tactics in the past like examining the person to see their motivation. It's easy to see peoples weaknesses and their unjust treatment of you as a product. Hurt people hurt people.

I see the latter tactic as dealing with the resentment.

Injustice is difficult. If you have no access to justice how do you deal with it?

[Jun]

Hello,

Tackattack in your introduction post you mentioned Buddhism and it's approach to hatred. I don't understand your mentioning karma, but from the Buddhist perspective hatred is a powerful emotion that can be harvested to bring about desired actions. The stumbling block however is simply giving in to hatred, and perhaps fuelling uncontrolled anger.

Verse five of the Dhammapada states:

"Hatred is never appeased by hatred.
Hatred is only appeased by Love (or, non-enmity).
This is an eternal law."

Later on in the 8th century Santideva expanded on this with, ""There is no evil equal to hatred, and no spiritual practice equal to forbearance. Therefore, one ought to develop forbearance, by various means, with great effort."

And also, "One's mind finds no peace, neither enjoys pleasure nor delight, nor sleeps, nor feels secure while the thorn of hatred is stuck in the heart."

The Buddha taught that hatred and aversion, like their opposites desire and greed, spring from a fundamental ignorance. Buddhism teaches that, greed, hatred, and delusion are known as the three poisons to be overcome if we are to be happy. But hatred and anger can also be powerful allies during the right circumstances, if we are able to control them.

[tackattack]

Jun - I'm no expert on buddhism or hinduism... I was speaking of things like "The self-controlled person, moving among objects, with his senses free from attachment and malevolence and brought under his own control, attains tranquility. "~ Bhagavad Gita II.64 I'm not aware of any buddhists teachings of using hatred to the advantage, please enlighten me with citations (no pun intended).

[Autumnlicious]

I'd like to contribute my dimension of hatred as well.

There is cold hatred and hot hatred.

Cold hatred is where you simply have no compassion for the other and have damaging them in some manner as a goal.

Hot hatred makes you attack like a crazy man. Cold hatred keeps you controlled.

[tackattack]

OK syn I'll agree that those are great adjectives for specific types of hate.
While I wait for Eil or Jun to respond what would you say could bring yoou to or take you away from both those types of hate?

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Yes,I hate, coldly and with utter contempt,but without the wish to actually harm.To harm the objects of my hatred would cause pain to others collaterally,and that is morally unacceptable to me.There is also the matter of my vestigal Catholic conscience which would no doubt punish me.

There are however two people upon whose graves I look forward to urinating.

The cause of my hatred is hurt at a visceral level which I have been unable to forgive. These emotions are deep and involuntary. I do not recommend abiding hatred. Like guilt, I believe hatred is essentially self destructive. In my opinion, forgiveness [of oneself and others] is far healthier and personally empowering,but sometimes just too bloody hard.