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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 29, 2015 at 2:14 pm
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 2:16 pm by TheRocketSurgeon.
Edit Reason: PUNCTUATION, damnit!
)
(October 29, 2015 at 1:33 pm)alpha male Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 1:20 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Ok so Alphamale objects to making health care affordable for all.
Not at all. But, that's frequently not the result of Obamacare.
Example: employer with fewer than 50 employees doesn't feel like negotiating for health insurance. So, he lets employees buy their own, then reimburses them for it. Sounds fine, right? Well, the ACA made this illegal and punishable by a fine of $100/employee reimbursed/day. Yep, a fine of $36,500/year for reimbursing an employee's health insurance.
But, that same employer isn't required by the ACA to offer health insurance. So, he stops reimbursing, and the employees are worse off than before.
I'm not making this up. I work in small business taxation and have seen this happen. It's crazy.
ETA: See for yourself: https://www.irs.gov/Affordable-Care-Act/...rangements
I happen to agree that the ACA is crazy, but not for the reasons you think. The original proposal, of a system akin to that in England and Canada (and the entire rest of the First World), was shot down by people allied with lobbyists for the private insurance system.
The ACA is the result of many compromises, and winds up a something of a chimera; even though it has done a lot of good, there is still a huge amount wrong with it. I would have been surprised if such a political compromise had come out otherwise, especially since it's such a huge bill and so many competing interests were deliberately trying to undermine the entire thing.
When you place profits of private companies over the health of your people, you get this kind of thing. Some think that it's "necessary" for it to be that way, but I find that most people advocating for such a position are one of three things: healthy enough that they think they don't need to pay into a system which they think they won't need for years on any serious level, wealthy enough that they don't have to worry about insurance coverage, or have turned Capitalism into a quasi-religion and think that the free market can solve problems when the product is not a matter of choice but necessity (the Invisible Hand does not work when people MUST have the product, and there are an effectively limited number of suppliers of said product- healthcare and medicine).
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 29, 2015 at 2:27 pm
(This post was last modified: October 29, 2015 at 2:28 pm by Whateverist.)
(October 29, 2015 at 1:33 pm)alpha male Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 1:20 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Ok so Alphamale objects to making health care affordable for all.
Not at all. But, that's frequently not the result of Obamacare.
Well of course it is inadequate. The sad thing is that the ACA is the best that is possible politically in this country. It could and should be much better. But for that to happen the republicunts would have to stop undermining the general good in favor of the micro percent they serve.
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 29, 2015 at 2:46 pm
It's all about expectations. Some people expect our healthcare system to provide..you know, healthcare. And then there's another camp, who, when faced with the sick and poor....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1TmeBd9338
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 29, 2015 at 4:09 pm
(October 29, 2015 at 8:43 am)Irrational Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 8:37 am)alpha male Wrote: Sure. From dictionary.com:
benevolent: characterized by or expressing goodwill or kindly feelings
good: morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious
While I didn't define these, I illustrated them earlier with an example, which everyone has ignored. Expanded version:
A judge is sentencing a convicted murderer. The judge tells the man that he's really good at heart and sentences him to eat a piece of chocolate cake, then go on his way. This would be benevolent of the judge, as it expresses goodwill and kindly feelings. It would not be good of the judge, as it is not morally excellent or righteous.
Regarding god, judgments such as the flood are obviously not benevolent, but they are from god's POV righteous, and therefore good.
According to dictionary.com, one of the synonyms for benevolent is good.
You are forcing a distinction where there shouldn't be. For a lot of people, and from the point of view of justice, it wouldn't be benevolent or good for a judge to let a convicted murderer go his merry way without having him be held accountable for his actions.
More to the point, it isn't moral to execute a "criminal" for crimes you forced him to commit both by creating his criminal nature, and forcing him to take part in your "plan", both of which the Christian god is guilty.
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 29, 2015 at 5:28 pm
(October 29, 2015 at 10:29 am)alpha male Wrote: Lack of benevolence does not equal malevolence. A judge can sentence a criminal with neither benevolence or malevolence. So, then God is an all-good judge whose sentences need not involve either perfect justice or perfect mercifulness (however those two terms correspond) but can simply be indifferent, and such a case would include destroying 99.9% of all life on earth by a flood? What would a malevolent intention or act be in your view?
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 29, 2015 at 6:55 pm
(October 29, 2015 at 4:09 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 8:43 am)Irrational Wrote: According to dictionary.com, one of the synonyms for benevolent is good.
You are forcing a distinction where there shouldn't be. For a lot of people, and from the point of view of justice, it wouldn't be benevolent or good for a judge to let a convicted murderer go his merry way without having him be held accountable for his actions.
More to the point, it isn't moral to execute a "criminal" for crimes you forced him to commit both by creating his criminal nature, and forcing him to take part in your "plan", both of which the Christian god is guilty. Can a god who tells fathers how to properly sell their daughters into sexual slaver V) be morally excellent? Will you surf the internet for a dictionary that defines moral excellence in a way that allows you to answer that question in the affirmative? Perhaps the Bible dictionary?
Maybe my error is that I'm interpreting the Bible literally. Can we glean some profound spiritual lesson from this passage if we interpret it metaphorically?
Quote:When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment."
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.
I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire
Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 29, 2015 at 7:40 pm
(October 29, 2015 at 6:16 am)Rhythm Wrote: So, basically, god always means well..lol.
Makes him quite a fuck up, doesn't it?
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 29, 2015 at 7:58 pm
"basically he's an underachiever"
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 29, 2015 at 8:39 pm
We could fix this if we but change the punctuation.
God always means, “Well…”
(October 29, 2015 at 7:40 pm)Minimalist Wrote: (October 29, 2015 at 6:16 am)Rhythm Wrote: So, basically, god always means well..lol.
Makes him quite a fuck up, doesn't it? We could fix this if we but change the punctuation.
God always means, “Well…”
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.
I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire
Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
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RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 12:15 am
I do understand the difficulty in the problem of evil and specifically of suffering that we cannot explain. It is especially difficult if we or someone we love is the one suffering. The issue I believe with this argument is that it focus's on and put's above everything else, only one or a few of the qualities of God.
It is setting up a false dichotomy. It wants to say that benevolence must do X to the exclusion of everything else. That benevolence would not allow suffering in any circumstance if it could be prevented. I don't believe this to be true, and don't believe that the definition of benevolence requires this. An honest judge may sentence someone, and cause suffering, but this does not mean that he is not benevolent or caring. However, caring for the person does not mean that the judge needs to exclude other responsibilities.
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