Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 10:45 am
(This post was last modified: October 30, 2015 at 10:45 am by Edwardo Piet.)
(October 30, 2015 at 10:18 am)alpha male Wrote: I think, therefore I am
Nope, Descartes got that wrong. There is no Cartesian Theater
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_theater
Quote:God predetermined all my thoughts
Nope.
Quote:Therefore, I don't think
Therefore, I am not
Premises are wrong so conclusions are irrelevant.
Furthermore if God predetermined all your thoughts it wouldn't at all imply that you didn't have any.
Posts: 6851
Threads: 76
Joined: October 17, 2012
Reputation:
31
RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 10:47 am
(October 30, 2015 at 10:36 am)Rhythm Wrote: So, no objection, no further elaboration. You linked to a page without reading it's contents..obviously, and despite not really knowing what omniscience is or refers to, or whether foreknowledge is possible...and conceding that the subject is somehow undecided....knowing none of that, all uncertainty, whatever omniscience is and whatever foreknowledge is you're just -sure- that god has it and that there's no problem with your conception of it?
Color me unimpressed.
Just encouraging some reading on your part. I've read the page more than once, although not for a couple years now. I don't elaborate because I've been through all that and find my current approach regarding personhood more interesting.
Posts: 6851
Threads: 76
Joined: October 17, 2012
Reputation:
31
RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 10:50 am
(October 30, 2015 at 10:45 am)Evie Wrote: Furthermore if God predetermined all your thoughts it wouldn't at all imply that you didn't have any.
It implies that I don't exist in any sense granting me rights.
You could program a computer to run a lifetime's thoughts through it's memory. If you pulled the plug on the computer partway through, no one would call you a murderer, because the computer did not have it's own independent thoughts.
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 10:55 am
(This post was last modified: October 30, 2015 at 10:56 am by Edwardo Piet.)
It doesn't imply you don't exist just because it implies you don't exist in a particular sense you wish.
Blimey, I've seen it all, a Christian guilty of Greedy Reductionism.
Another Dan Dennett thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greedy_reductionism
Besides we don't exist in that sense anyway. There is no "self" in the dualistic sense we often feel we have. Our mind is not seperate from out body. And there is also no Libertarian Free Will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajfkO_X0l0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5ebjk319Wg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9zeGbkjKk8
Posts: 6851
Threads: 76
Joined: October 17, 2012
Reputation:
31
RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 10:55 am
To say that god is evil for allowing suffering in humans implies that humans are persons or agents with rights to be free from suffering. That premise usually goes unstated. I'm saying that, in arguing that an omniscient creator precludes free will, even if successful you've just created another problem, i.e. humans no longer exist as independent persons with any rights. You win a battle but still lose the war.
Posts: 6610
Threads: 73
Joined: May 31, 2014
Reputation:
56
RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 10:58 am
(October 30, 2015 at 10:50 am)alpha male Wrote: (October 30, 2015 at 10:45 am)Evie Wrote: Furthermore if God predetermined all your thoughts it wouldn't at all imply that you didn't have any.
It implies that I don't exist in any sense granting me rights.
You could program a computer to run a lifetime's thoughts through it's memory. If you pulled the plug on the computer partway through, no one would call you a murderer, because the computer did not have it's own independent thoughts.
They might call me a murderer if I did it to a sophisticated robot imbued with advanced level of thinking.
Posts: 13901
Threads: 263
Joined: January 11, 2009
Reputation:
82
RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 10:59 am
(October 30, 2015 at 10:55 am)alpha male Wrote: To say that god is evil for allowing suffering in humans implies that humans are persons or agents with rights to be free from suffering. That premise usually goes unstated. I'm saying that, in arguing that an omniscient creator precludes free will, even if successful you've just created another problem, i.e. humans no longer exist as independent persons with any rights. You win a battle but still lose the war.
The god character is certainly written as an overly controlling genocidal arsehole so we can only go by that really as the fiction is all we have.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
Posts: 6610
Threads: 73
Joined: May 31, 2014
Reputation:
56
RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 10:59 am
(October 30, 2015 at 10:55 am)alpha male Wrote: To say that god is evil for allowing suffering in humans implies that humans are persons or agents with rights to be free from suffering. That premise usually goes unstated. I'm saying that, in arguing that an omniscient creator precludes free will, even if successful you've just created another problem, i.e. humans no longer exist as independent persons with any rights. You win a battle but still lose the war.
You are not free to sprout wings and fly. Why then should you or I be free to go hurt other people?
Posts: 6851
Threads: 76
Joined: October 17, 2012
Reputation:
31
RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 11:00 am
Another interesting aspect is: does your argument purporting that omniscience precludes free will also apply to god himself?
If you think people can't be blamed for their actions because they can't help but to do what god already knows what they'll do; and
God knows everything that he will do himself;
then you likewise have no basis to blame god for his actions.
Posts: 67288
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Are all atheists this ill-informed about religion?
October 30, 2015 at 11:01 am
(This post was last modified: October 30, 2015 at 11:02 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 30, 2015 at 10:55 am)alpha male Wrote: To say that god is evil for allowing suffering in humans implies that humans are persons or agents with rights to be free from suffering. That premise usually goes unstated. I'm saying that, in arguing that an omniscient creator precludes free will, even if successful you've just created another problem, i.e. humans no longer exist as independent persons with any rights. You win a battle but still lose the war. Perhaps you don't understand.......the people who bring this up to you...aren;t interested in that consequence. They're appealing to you, in the hopes that you would disagree with a logical consequence of your statements. In claiming that some war has been lost, it's clear that you agree that such a conception of human beings is negatively valued. You agree with us, but dissonance won't allow you to realize it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
|
