Biblical Christianity 101, a study of the book of Romans

[Hmmm?]

Paul was only endorsed by the 'leaders'/of the Original 12

Drich, my beloved brother, are you sure?

Please, show me.

Just because Paul said he was endorsed by the leaders, does that make it so?

Paul like the rest of us lied about a great number of things

By nicely warning the people to beware of Paul's letters do you think Peter is endorsing him?

Something that was very helpful to me was reading just the red letters in the 3 gospels 

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[Drich]

Ok so it looks like you guys have run out of poo to fling, let go back to chapter 3 maybe that will give you something new to 'digest.'
Remember the frame work chapter one identifies Evil people, and Paul gives a list of the things that they do. Chapter two Paul starts out telling the people of Romans do not judge the evil people (Meaning do not persecute them) because they in their beliefs are still in sin/committing the Same exact acts/The list Paul provided as the evil people. The only difference being the sinners of the Roman Church sought atonement for their sins, rather than try to moralize/make excuse for their sin.

romans3

So, do Jews have anything that others don’t have? Do they get any benefit from being circumcised? 2 Yes, the Jews have many benefits. The most important one is this: God trusted the Jews with his teachings. 3 It is true that some Jews were not faithful to God. But will that stop God from doing what he promised? 4 No, even if everyone else is a liar, God will always do what he says. As the Scriptures say about him,

“You will be proved right in what you say,
   and you will win when people accuse you."

Here Paul is doing a little damage control in that He just spent the majority of Last chapter telling the church at Rome that they did not have to convert to Judaism in order to believe. At the same time however he is also saying this does not devalue what it means to be a jew. that despite what some may think the Jews did and always will hold a special place in God's heart.

So to recap, one does not have to be a jew to be Christisan, but at the same time being a Christian believer who was jewish does not mean their status is devalued either.

5 When we do wrong, that shows more clearly that God is right. So can we say that God does wrong when he punishes us? (That’s the way some people think.) 6 Of course not. If God could not punish us, how could he judge the world?

7 Someone might say, “When I lie, it really gives God glory, because my lie makes his truth easier to see. So why am I judged a sinner?” 8 It would be the same to say, “We should do evil so that good will come.” Many people criticize us, saying that’s what we teach. They are wrong, and they should be condemned for saying that.

Here (verse 5) I don't follow all the logic Paul is using to get to his final point, but I do agree with it. I myself teaching from Romans have found both in and out of the church that people accuse me of teaching people to do wrong, or that I am taking away something from the law of sin. When I instruct as Paul instructs later in this Book. (and briefly through the following in this chapter)
When in fact i am not. the law remains and we are judged by the law. What most do not understand the law also contains a large measure dealing with atonement, as well as the thou shalls and the thou shall nots. I/Paul teach the whole law, that has the grace provided by Christ in his sacrifice provided. Those who only teach the thou shalts only teach apart of the law.


9 So are we Jews better than other people? No, we have already said that those who are Jews, as well as those who are not Jews, are the same. They are all guilty of sin. 10 As the Scriptures say,

“There is no one doing what is right,
   not even one.
11 There is no one who understands.
   There is no one who is trying to be with God.
12 They have all turned away from him,
   and now they are of no use to anyone.
There is no one who does good,
   not even one.”

13 “Their words come from mouths that are like open graves.
   They use their lying tongues to deceive others.”

“Their words are like the poison of snakes.”

14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and angry words.”

15 “They are always ready to kill someone.
16     Everywhere they go they cause trouble and ruin.
17 They don’t know how to live in peace.”

18 “They have no fear or respect for God.”

19 What the law says is for those who are under the law. It stops anyone from making excuses. And it brings the whole world under God’s judgment, 20 because no one can be made right with God by following the law. The law only shows us our sin.

The over all message here re-enforces what was said in chapter 2 about all being in sin. That ALL forms of religion are wrong. Their is no 'true Christianity' without Christ. That all man's religion By It Self is no better than our sin. Meaning religion does not save us. It is the work of Christ alone that redeems man.

verses 10-18 refer back to what David wrote in Psalms 14. That what he meant by 'scripture says.' In Psalms 14 David is saying unbelievers show these attributes, while here Paul quotes what david says and applied it to everyone, believers and unbelievers alike. So the question then becomes how can a believer's efforts be dismissed? Because of what he concludes in verse 20. "No one can be made right by following the law."

This means all of those who define their Christianity or any belief in God through their efforts in trying to just keep the law fall under the psalms 14 list/people. A good example of this if/when people believe they have the one right/true church. Or that they must practice some ritual or traditional rite.


The follow is how to now find 'righteousness' before God.

21 But God has a way to make people right, and it has nothing to do with the law. He has now shown us that new way, which the law and the prophets told us about. 22 God makes people right through their faith in[a] Jesus Christ. He does this for all who believe in Christ. Everyone is the same. 23 All have sinned and are not good enough to share God’s divine greatness. 24 They are made right with God by his grace. This is a free gift. They are made right with God by being made free from sin through Jesus Christ. 25-26 God gave Jesus as a way to forgive people’s sins through their faith in him. God can forgive them because the blood sacrifice of Jesus pays for their sins. God gave Jesus to show that he always does what is right and fair. He was right in the past when he was patient and did not punish people for their sins. And in our own time he still does what is right. God worked all this out in a way that allows him to judge people fairly and still make right any person who has faith in Jesus.

The above Should be the exact oppsite of what most legalistic Christians believe. While they may concede to one or two points the over all contextual message is very counter intuitive to a legalistic Christian. Most people bound in legalism work to earn their place in heaven, meaning one's good deeds must exceed their evil deeds, or you must be baptized a certian way, number of times ect, pray this prayer when you do this, or say this chant when you sin.

The Fact that Paul says "The laws is not our means to righteousness anymore" The law is only meant to point to our sin, and subsequent need for redemption. this invalidate all of those looking to 'earn their salvation though their works/ specialized version of Christianity. Paul emphasizes this in the rest of the Chapter:

27 So do we have any reason to boast about ourselves? No reason at all. And why not? Because we are depending on the way of faith, not on what we have done in following the law. 28 I mean we are made right with God through faith, not through what we have done to follow the law. This is what we believe. 29 God is not only the God of the Jews. He is also the God of those who are not Jews. 30 There is only one God. He will make Jews[b] right with him by their faith, and he will also make non-Jews[c] right with him through their faith. 31 So do we destroy the law by following the way of faith? Not at all! In fact, faith causes us to be what the law actually wants.

Also note how he ends this chapter. Those who assume I teach lawless ness  because I teach from romans only hear the bit about the law only defines our sin, and the seem to assume that it must mean we would then want to live the oppsite way from the law. verses 30 and 31 say otherwise. It says if we are truly justified by our faith/belief in Christ we are not bound by the law for our righteousness, but yet we will want to serve God through the Law.


I have used this simple marriage analogy to explain this in the past.

when I got married I did not give my wife flowers and showered her with love gifts and thoughtful words because I was under contract to, nor because I read a book that told me to. She did not marry me because she wanted or demanded that I do those things. I do/did those things because I loved her. It was my love for her that made me want to live my life in such a way as to be pleasing and joyful to her.

Like wise We are not saved because we are contractually obligated to follow a given set of rules. We are saved Because God loves us and our heart truly want/love Him. We then inturn follow his laws because we want to live our lives in such a way to honor and please God. Our obedience is our of love not obligation! What's the difference? Obligation promotes wicked legalistic behavior, and even bigotry and hate for those who do not follow suit. Those are the christian version of the pharrisees. To follow God's law out of love, produces tolerance and understanding, those who obligate themselves by making christianity a list of rules and laws to follow, do not understand what Christ died for. However as we will learn we have been given so much freedom, we can live in bondage to the law if that is all we can understand.

[Minimalist]

Ok so it looks like you guys have run out of poo to fling

But you haven't run out of shit to write.

Has anyone ever told you that you are a boring fuckwit, drippy.  Consider yourself told.  Preachy little shit.

[Drich]

Can we move to Romans 4?

Everyone get the gist?

That all are in sin all the time Even the most religious? that the 'pope' is no different before God than you or I in that regaurd.

[Edwardo Piet]

Hint under hide tags:

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Nobody gives a fuck Drich your posts don't provide evidence of anything real

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[Hmmm?]

In Romans chapter 3 Paul quotes Psalms 53, 9, 140, and 10 among others. By doing that do you think Paul is putting his seal of approval on those Psalms?

[Drich]

We starting out with another very Anti 'Christian' doctrine. Or rather Anti legalism doctrine.

So what can we say about Abraham, the father of our people? What did he learn about faith? 2 If Abraham was made right by the things he did, he had a reason to boast about himself. But God knew different. 3 That’s why the Scriptures say, “Abraham believed God, and because of this he was accepted as one who is right with God.”[a]

Here Paul is setting up which came first. God's favor for abraham because of his works/religious practices or because of his faith/belief in God. This is important because many of us today understand these words "We are justified by faith alone" but do not know how to reconcile that with our works. So Christianity becomes about doing 'right' and living a certain way and when people don't/can't about harsh judgement and negitive responses to those outside of a religion based effort to righteousness. Behavior like this is what I see over and over as being one of the reasons people are so put off by Christianity.. And as we will see Biblical Christianity is not like that at all.

4 When people work, their pay is not given to them as a gift. They earn the pay they get. 5 But people cannot do any work that will make them right with God. So they must trust in him. Then he accepts their faith, and that makes them right with him. He is the one who makes even evil people right. 6 David said the same thing when he was talking about the blessing people have when God accepts them as good without looking at what they have done:

This is a critical point. in that our works (ability to live by the law of God nor the things we do in service to God) Do not justify us before God. It is our initial faith that God accepts as justification. So again this means (as per what was discussed in Chapter 3) That the Law ceases to be a requirement of our coming to righteousness/our way into heaven. Which then makes the law only valid in pointing out that we do indeed need salvation/atonement. In other words 'morality' counts for nothing in of itself. that is our system of accountablity not God's. His is solely based on our belief/faith in Him to do what He says He will do. And even then according to Christ Him self on this very subject all we need is a mustard seed's worth of faith to find what God has promised. Which means the law (while still valid in that it points to sin in those who have not sought atonement)ceases to be our way to righteousness/heaven.

“It is a great blessing
   when people are forgiven for the wrongs they have done,
   when their sins are erased!
8 It is a great blessing when the Lord accepts people
   as if they are without sin!”

The above is what Paul is using (OT Quotation) to justify or underscore the point he is making. (in that this is not a new concept/something unique to Christianity, that God has being doing this very thing since the beginning)

9 Is this blessing only for those who are circumcised? Or is it also for those who are not circumcised? We have already said that it was because of Abraham’s faith that he was accepted as one who is right with God. 10 So how did this happen? Did God accept Abraham before or after he was circumcised? God accepted him before his circumcision. 11 Abraham was circumcised later to show that God accepted him. His circumcision was proof that he was right with God through faith before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the father of all those who believe but are not circumcised. They believe and are accepted as people who are right with God.

This shows that while Abraham's salvation was not dependant on his works Abraham still followed through with his works as a sign of love and respect for God. so while we are not justifed by works, we still try to do the best we can.

Now someone might look at this and say what is the difference between faith based salvation and works based salvation if in both instances the same works are being done.. In a word, Attitude. Our attitude is completely different. Meaning when we base salvation on a must do works theology like the pharisees did, then we fall into the same trap of judging everyone by what they do, and worship becomes a check list of things to do rather than an actual relationship. Which (relationship) is what God actually wants. And in the case of the Pharisees is the reason Jesus blasted them and their practice of Judaism so hard. Their rules and check list theology was having the opposite effect in that it was keeping people from God, rather than promoting a relationship. The same is true for the legalistic Christian/One who demands obedience to the law or their doctrine/version of God's law.
The following 3 verses even take this a step further.

12 And Abraham is also the father of those who have been circumcised. But it is not their circumcision that makes him their father. He is their father only if they live following the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13 Abraham and his descendants received the promise that they would get the whole world. But Abraham did not receive that promise because he followed the law. He received that promise because he was right with God through his faith. 14 If people could get God’s promise by following the law, then faith is worthless. And God’s promise to Abraham is worthless, 15 because the law can only bring God’s anger on those who disobey it. But if there is no law, then there is nothing to disobey.

When Paul say "Nothing to obey" He is speaking about believers who are no longer santified through the law.
As Christ said the law still exists, but again only to point to the need for redemption. Paul himself will speak on this in greater detail shortly.

16 So people get what God promised by having faith. This happens so that the promise can be a free gift. And if the promise is a free gift, then all of Abraham’s people will get that promise. The promise is not just for those who live under the Law of Moses. It is for all who live with faith as Abraham did. He is the father of us all. 17 As the Scriptures say, “I have made you a father of many nations.”[b] This is true before God, the one Abraham believed—the God who gives life to the dead and speaks of things that don’t yet exist as if they are real.

Here Paul says or identifies the source of salvation (going to heaven) More over righteousness (being made right/sin free before God, justifying your ability to go to Heaven) is a free gift that we can not earn by works/obeying the law. He draws a strong parallel in the life of Abraham (the most righteous Jew) of when he was deemed righteous verse when he started his campaign of works. showing again that what Paul is teaching is nothing new, as this pattern of works and righteousness has been consistent with God from the very first example given by the jews.

18 There was no hope that Abraham would have children, but Abraham believed God and continued to hope. And that is why he became the father of many nations. As God told him, “You will have many descendants.”[c] 19 Abraham was almost a hundred years old, so he was past the age for having children. Also, Sarah could not have children. Abraham was well aware of this, but his faith in God never became weak. 20 He never doubted that God would do what he promised. He never stopped believing. In fact, he grew stronger in his faith and just praised God. 21 Abraham felt sure that God was able to do what he promised. 22 So that’s why “he was accepted as one who is right with God.”[d] 23 These words (“he was accepted”) were written not only for Abraham. 24 They were also written for us. God will also accept us because we believe. We believe in the one who raised Jesus our Lord from death. 25 Jesus was handed over to die for our sins, and he was raised from death to make us right with God.

Paul is now driving the point home (to the Jews) by showing that Abraham was justified before God before he completed the first 'work' that it was through his faith the God found Abraham righteous.


So what does that mean to us in context of the study so far?

Chapter 1
Paul identifies evil and evil people (People who will not repent of sin/People who love sin more than God

Chapter 2
Paul starts by telling the sinners of the church not to judge evil people because they too are guilty of the exact same sin. thus pointing out the ony real difference between sin and evil is a heart that loves God more than the sin they are in.

Chapter 3
That ALL in and out of the church are all ways in sin. None are righteous no not one.

Chapter 4
We can not earn righteousness through the works based religion legalistic people push. That salvation is a gift that can not be earned. Yet we do 'good works/try to up hold the law out of love and respect to God. the difference being is the 'judgement' a legalistic heart might have toward God. verse compassion we should have to our fellow slave to sin.

[Edwardo Piet]

*Makes loudest yawning sound ever made by a human being*

[Drich]

In Romans chapter 3 Paul quotes Psalms 53, 9, 140, and 10 among others.  By doing that do you think Paul is putting his seal of approval on those Psalms?

1. Romans 3:12 Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20
   
2. Romans 3:13 Psalm 5:9
   
3. Romans 3:13 Psalm 140:3
   
4. Romans 3:14 Psalm 10:7 (see Septuagint)
   
5. Romans 3:17 Isaiah 59:7,8
   
6. Romans 3:18 Psalm 36:1
   

What Paul is doing here is drawing a link between what was true then, and compiling a list to describe how much worse it has become in his time. In short his list is compiled of several specific instances of separate depraved acts of rebellion. He now takes the worst of the worst and applies it to the most religious of his time. He is showing a great decline, and quoting "God"/via the psalms on how he feels about empty 'religious' people and this best efforts have become.

[Hmmm?]

So you do think Paul is in agreement with what is written in those Psalms? ...do those Psalms have Paul's seal of approval?