John Armstrong With A Simple Challenge For Muslims

[DeistPaladin]

if any of this happened there will be no test for us which is one of the reasons of our temporary existance in the world.asking why god did this or that really need a great knowledge about everything as if you dont know why we are here or what we are suppose to do you will never understand the reason beyond things

This is the "God works in mysterious ways" line.

What I'm asking is have you given any thought to the tactics here? It seems that if it were part of a deliberate plan, than it's a very irrational plan, far too self-defeating to be hatched by a more knowledgeable god. The proof is in the results. Of course the Christians rejected Muhammad except where his sword reached. What other result could there have been?

and about the evidence if you searched in different religions with objectivity and you didnt find any evidence i wish to know what kind of evidence you was looking for

How about any at all?

All you've got is "some guy claimed God spoke to him". You certainly don't believe the exact same claim made by Joseph Smith, David Koresh, Jim Jones or any other cult leader. Why do you expect me to take his word for it?

The claim to have spoken to God is, I'm sure you might agree, a fantastic claim that demands hard and heavy evidence. The evidence we usually expect in day-to-day life is proportional to how outlandish the claim is. If I told you I had lunch with a friend of yours today, you might take my word for it. If I told you I had lunch with one of your deceased relatives, you'd demand a great deal of evidence and maybe still not believe me. How about if I told you I spoke with God today?

This is what I mean by special pleading. You believe Muhammad was a prophet and yet reject all these other prophets who present no less in the way of evidence. I can go to the local insane asylum and find a dozen inmates who will tell me of their audience with God and have just as much proof to show for it.

...what jews tried to do is to justify that they didnt believe by claiming that he was suppose to be a king according to their scripture and later they said he is a sorcerer and the last justification they did was before trying to kill him they said that if he was sent from god we will not be able to kill him(they are still waiting for him to come as a king)

What didn't the Jews believe according to Islam?

I understand the Christian perspective. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God (or, reading John, God incarnate). This was and is blasphemous to the Jews who share the Muslim idea of the jealous, monotheistic god who delegates the relationship with his followers to no one. What exactly did the Jews have to reject regarding the Muslim Jesus?

John 4:16

Sorry, I mean John 14:6. A bit of transposed numbers there.

How do you measure "greatness" then?

delivering the messege of god and have patience for all the things happened to them

So pretty much you have to show up for the job. Thanks for clearing that up.

a lot of things was written but during the killing of people opposing each other a lot was lost and later they had to choose between different books but there are a lot of another books discovered that contains writings by others who was with jesus(pbuh) but of course few was introduced publicly and on the internet(i have a translation of bernaba bible and it contains a lot of differences from the bible we have now)

Yeah, there are many Gospels and epistles that didn't make it into the Bible. If you want to say Christianity is a mess, I'm right there with you. However, that proves my point that there was no "pure" set of teachings by Jesus, assuming there were any at all.

And are you suggesting that Jesus did write something down about his teachings? You base that on what?

[mo3taz3nbar]

This is the "God works in mysterious ways" line.

in mysterious ways that can be understood by observation and increasing knowledge.

What I'm asking is have you given any thought to the tactics here? It seems that if it were part of a deliberate plan, than it's a very irrational plan, far too self-defeating to be hatched by a more knowledgeable god. The proof is in the results.

you are saying this because you think that the result should be that everyone would believe in god but infact the result should be that the good thing and the bad thing is there and everyone can make his choice.

Of course the Christians rejected Muhammad except where his sword reached. What other result could there have been?

there was a lot of christians and jews that believed in muhammed(pbuh) during his time and no one can believe by the sword as believe is something internal.if you say that there is no god except Allah that doesnt mean you are a believer

The claim to have spoken to God is, I'm sure you might agree, a fantastic claim that demands hard and heavy evidence. The evidence we usually expect in day-to-day life is proportional to how outlandish the claim is.

of course i agree with you but the problem here is what kind of evidence you are looking for?and also i want to know what is your beliefs. you think that there is no god or that there is no proof or what?

This is what I mean by special pleading. You believe Muhammad was a prophet and yet reject all these other prophets who present no less in the way of evidence. I can go to the local insane asylum and find a dozen inmates who will tell me of their audience with God and have just as much proof to show for it.

am studying the basic scriptures if i have reasons for not believing in certain religion i will not believe anything that is based in it untill someone explain to me the things that make me not believe

What didn't the Jews believe according to Islam?

I understand the Christian perspective. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God (or, reading John, God incarnate). This was and is blasphemous to the Jews who share the Muslim idea of the jealous, monotheistic god who delegates the relationship with his followers to no one. What exactly did the Jews have to reject regarding the Muslim Jesus?

they didnt believe that jesus(pbuh) was messenger of god and they continued writing things with their hand and say it is from god and a lot of other things
we share with them that god is one but there is a lot of other things about god we dont share with them like being jealous and stuff like this and they also said a lot of bad things about the prophets that we dont agree on it

Sorry, I mean John 14:6. A bit of transposed numbers there.

that doesnt prove that he is the son of god each prophet god send is the way to god in his life and to his people as he tell them gods word.about the son of god thing it could take an whole thread but what i was searching about this issue when studying the bible was the explanation of the lot of god sons in the bible if jesus(pbuh) was son of god and thats why they pray to him there is a lot of other people that we must pray for too according to the bible

Yeah, there are many Gospels and epistles that didn't make it into the Bible. If you want to say Christianity is a mess, I'm right there with you. However, that proves my point that there was no "pure" set of teachings by Jesus, assuming there were any at all.

there is a bible that write what jesus said in red i collected all the red parts in this bible together and when you read them you get really a different view about jesus(pbuh) than the one given by the authors

And are you suggesting that Jesus did write something down about his teachings? You base that on what?

no am saying that a lot of his followers wrote what he said and i base that on a lot of writings being discovered about him

[Minimalist]

Is Harry Potter real because there are a lot of books about him and fans of the books have written lots of things about them?

[annatar]

Is Harry Potter real because there are a lot of books about him and fans of the books have written lots of things about them?

Of course he is!!!! dont mess with harry! ever!!(don't mention this to gandalf please. he is really jealous)

[Jaysyn]

Is Harry Potter real because there are a lot of books about him and fans of the books have written lots of things about them?

If that's true, I'm going to start praying to Tymora & Lathander. At least I know they aren't as malevolent as Yaweh or Allah.

[Paul the Human]

All Hail The Morninglord!!

There is always another dawn.

[DeistPaladin]

you are saying this because you think that the result should be that everyone would believe in god but infact the result should be that the good thing and the bad thing is there and everyone can make his choice.

And I've already illustrated why the results that happened would be inevitable. Can you go back to my earlier posts where I discussed this? If you're a Christian living in the 8th century Constantinople, are you seriously going to consider that some guy from another land who was recently born knows the truth about Jesus better than the church established by the very people who were his disciples and apostles?

Some "test", and that puts aside why a just god feels that metaphysical beliefs are the most important thing to consider when judging a person's character.

of course i agree with you but the problem here is what kind of evidence you are looking for?

Heal Stephen Hawking. Allow him to walk and talk again without the assistance of his machines. Or perform some miracle along these lines, something that can't be explained by natural forces. Then I will convert to Islam.

[Minimalist]

you are saying this because you think that the result should be that everyone would believe in god but infact the result should be that the good thing and the bad thing is there and everyone can make his choice.

And I've already illustrated why the results that happened would be inevitable. Can you go back to my earlier posts where I discussed this? If you're a Christian living in the 8th century Constantinople, are you seriously going to consider that some guy from another land who was recently born knows the truth about Jesus better than the church established by the very people who were his disciples and apostles?

Some "test", and that puts aside why a just god feels that metaphysical beliefs are the most important thing to consider when judging a person's character.

of course i agree with you but the problem here is what kind of evidence you are looking for?

Heal Stephen Hawking. Allow him to walk and talk again without the assistance of his machines. Or perform some miracle along these lines, something that can't be explained by natural forces. Then I will convert to Islam.

That would be a worthy test for any god. Sure as shit beats turning water into wine.