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RE: Do you think the universe is real?
December 14, 2015 at 7:05 pm
(This post was last modified: December 14, 2015 at 7:16 pm by bennyboy.)
(December 14, 2015 at 1:25 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (December 14, 2015 at 1:19 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Yep. All my human experiences depend upon my current notion being at least partially true: in my experience, my computer is real, and I can really send text messages and receive responses. However, that part has little to do with the real nature of the universe. It has more to do with experience with objects and their properties, and of ideas.
Au contraire, lol. It has -everything- to do with the nature of the universe, so far as we can tell. The reason, for example..that your toilet paper roll can't send a text and your phone can..has to do with the manner in which materials interact - and that has -everything- to do with their nature as materials, and the nature of the universe in which those materials reside. Your experience, itself, seems to have everything to do with the materials of which you are comprised (and that which those experiences relate to is comprised). Why you see some wavelengths, and not others, why you hear some bands and not others, why you feel some pressure, and some energy..but not others.
Surely, you can have at least some confidence...?
I have confidence in objects and their properties (toilet paper not having, for example, the ability to send text messages), not in my knowledge of the framework or underlying "reality" which supports their existence. My desk is real enough for me, whether it is really a purely physical object, or an idea in some massive Mind of God, or the Matrix, or a collection of a gazillion statistical wave-functions interacting in a purely mathematical (yeah, I said it, bitches!  ) "space". So yes, the universe is real. But I can only confidently state so because I'm talking about the collection of objects and their properties, and not making assertions about what underlies them.
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RE: Do you think the universe is real?
December 14, 2015 at 7:25 pm
Why doesn't the object, your toilet paper roll, not have the ability to send a message..whereas the other object, your phone, does...in your estimation?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do you think the universe is real?
December 14, 2015 at 7:33 pm
(This post was last modified: December 14, 2015 at 7:38 pm by bennyboy.)
(December 14, 2015 at 7:25 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Why doesn't the object, your toilet paper roll, not have the ability to send a message..whereas the other object, your phone, does...in your estimation?
Because they don't have power sources, metal antennae or human input interfaces.
Seriously, though. You and I both know that I have a layman's understanding of electronics and an awareness of chemistry and QM. Those things are as much a part of my world view as they are yours. The difference is that I see no reason to assume they are fundamental to reality, and I cannot therefore draw conclusions about the underlying nature of reality. So if the universe is defined as a collection of QM particles and their interactions, it clearly exists. If it is defined as a collection of QM particles and their interactions, on the stipulation that this is the fundamental essence of reality, then I would say it probably doesn't.
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RE: Do you think the universe is real?
December 14, 2015 at 7:35 pm
A toilet paper roll certainly does have a human input interface for sending a message. You can write on it.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Do you think the universe is real?
December 14, 2015 at 7:36 pm
(December 14, 2015 at 7:33 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (December 14, 2015 at 7:25 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Why doesn't the object, your toilet paper roll, not have the ability to send a message..whereas the other object, your phone, does...in your estimation?
Because they don't have power sources, metal antennae or human input interfaces. . . in my estimation.
You;ve just described the material limitations of the objects...in which you have no confidence.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do you think the universe is real?
December 14, 2015 at 8:00 pm
(This post was last modified: December 14, 2015 at 8:01 pm by bennyboy.)
(December 14, 2015 at 7:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (December 14, 2015 at 7:33 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Because they don't have power sources, metal antennae or human input interfaces. . . in my estimation.
You;ve just described the material limitations of the objects...in which you have no confidence.
If by "material," you mean "objects and their properties," you are right; it is both your experience and mine that electronic messenging systems require a certain composition-- including, for example, electronics. If by "material," you mean "the underlying nature of reality on which objects and properties supervene," then I do not know whether you are right or not. . . but I doubt it.
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RE: Do you think the universe is real?
December 14, 2015 at 8:03 pm
(This post was last modified: December 14, 2015 at 8:05 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You don't doubt it when you use them, or when you describe them, and then suddenly lose all confidence, when you reach that favorite subject of yours? IDK, are you sure that you don't have just a tiny smidgeon of confidence in -our- explanations of that.....? Cmon, you've got a smidgeon, I've got a smidgeon too. I bet we have the exact same smidgeon.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do you think the universe is real?
December 14, 2015 at 11:31 pm
(December 14, 2015 at 8:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You don't doubt it when you use them, or when you describe them, and then suddenly lose all confidence, when you reach that favorite subject of yours? IDK, are you sure that you don't have just a tiny smidgeon of confidence in -our- explanations of that.....? Cmon, you've got a smidgeon, I've got a smidgeon too. I bet we have the exact same smidgeon.
Our explanations aren't deep enough to be considered foundational. We have explanations of things and their properties, as well as some of the principles that guide them. But while you keep insisting that I don't believe in any of it, I will keep insisting that you are wrong. QM, atomic chemistry, classical physics, all of it is very compelling. What isn't compelling is either your assumption, or the insistence that our shared knowledge and ideas imply that I accept your assumption.
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RE: Do you think the universe is real?
December 15, 2015 at 12:01 am
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2015 at 12:03 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Our shared knowledge and ideas form the entirety of my assumptions, more accurately termed -our- assumptions. Again, you seemed confident a moment before. It simply seemed to me that to lose all confidence, was an exceedingly hyperbolic statement.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do you think the universe is real?
December 15, 2015 at 1:36 am
(December 15, 2015 at 12:01 am)Rhythm Wrote: Our shared knowledge and ideas form the entirety of my assumptions, more accurately termed -our- assumptions. Again, you seemed confident a moment before. It simply seemed to me that to lose all confidence, was an exceedingly hyperbolic statement.
Why?
I have confidence in our system of understanding and organizing the shared experiences we call "objects," as well as their properties. I never had confidence in any idea of underlying reality, nor do I feel any need to-- there are simply no experiences that I have had, or expect to have, that make me think I know, or can know, what's under the hood of the universe, in an ultimate sense.
It's not hypoerbolic, it's absolute agnosticism with regards to cosmogony.
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